Only 'Rewinded' time is logically possible

G

greyhelium

Temporal Novice
Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

ive said it before,

-self-quote-
Here is the deal. There is no possible way to travel back in time. I mean think about it, we would all-ready know. The only logical time travel is forward.
Click to expand...

i totally agree with you mate its that simple. Travelling back in time provides opportunity for paradox; anything that can cause paradox (other than verbal/syntax ARTIFICAL paradoxes) like the grandfather paradox, things that have infinite loops (which cannot exist because time, although infinite in length, it is LINEAR and therefore no aspect of time can be involved in endless WhileWend loops, or circular refrences, without causing paradox) are logically impossible, and therefore impossible to apply. Its not a question of technology or causality or chrono-ethics, but LOGIC.

-end self-quote-
and Ill say it again, but this time I'll expand upon it a bit, alhough its very simple.

i dont see why you are even having a discussion backwards time travel as of yet is impossible not just technologically but logically because of such paradoxes as the 'grandfather' paradox being eminent. And If something allows for the happenstance of paradoxes, it must be logically impossible and so therefore time travel is impossible as it creates the possibility of creating paradoxes. However, if you were to somehow avoid the question of paradoxes, it could be possible if the technology was there, but as of today there isnt a soloution for this. Although, one soloution is what i call 'rewinded time' which could be technologically possible (im not sure exactly how as i am no physics expert, but maybe something along the lines of a reverse particle accelerator ?)where if you DID go back in time you would simply be 'reversing' or 'rewinding' much like going forward in time via acceleration and einstiens theories of relativity, or cryogenics, which is technologically viable (although not 100% appliable at the current time) ANd so if you 'rewound' time you would not be in a process of transporting yourself to another time stream, but simply going backwards thorugh time probably at an accelerated rate, which would undo evrything that is going to come. but you would have no memory of your 'previous' existince and your body would not be 'transported' it would be de-aged in a way, and your growth/physical proccessing would be reversed up until the point at which you reverted back to >> directional (forward) time. I know that this is describing something that is not the type of time travel many here wish to attempt, or claim to have tried, but it is the only possible way of travelling in time, and since it is much like rewinding a viedotape, where the outcome will still be the same, but only an outside observer can notice the difference, it is pretty futile. The type of instantaneous matter teleportation backwards in time that you discuss here is only one tihng: LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. SOme say it is technologically possible, but this is not true either as something that can cause paradoxes (this is ignoring the blatantly WRONG titor-like theories of multiple worldlines) is logically impossible, and therefore it cannot be made by anything technological, only supernatural. im sorry if my writing is a bit long winded and if the grammar is not too good, but im very tired at the moment while writing plus i only took a couple of minutes on this as i was in a hurry. anyway, thats my point of view, butfeel free to explain your views and tell me if ive made any mistakes. thanks.

EDIT: But despite my views i am not against time travel discussion. In fact i have a great love of time travl theories, paradoxes and would greatly love to discuss these things, causality and paradoxzes that would be created thru time travel. although i dont believe it is possible, i have an avid intrest in the subject and love debating on a hypothetical level the causes/effects of time travel and its properties.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

Wow. Try using whitespace and formatting.

But since you used 'logic', 'possible', and 'impossible'...You must be right.

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

which cannot exist because time, although infinite in length, it is LINEAR and therefore no aspect of time can be involved in endless WhileWend loops, or circular refrences, without causing paradox) are logically impossible
Click to expand...

I am sure you know that I completely disagree with this conclusion. Time is non-linear. This is supported by many sources. When using logic, once an idea has been estsablished, it needs to be supported, perhaps by many other ideals. The closer an ideal is to the truth, the more supporting connections will be found.

You claim that time is linear, yet what support can you provide?

The Non-Linear ideal of time is supported by many texts from modern times to many written long ago. And I have yet to see anything in existence that is linear, everything follows a pattern that is circular.

And as far as additional support, I refer you to the Key of Time Thread, The God? Thread, or many of RainmanTimes Threads.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

Also,

what makes you think that changing the future - wouldn't always have an effect on the past?
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

In thinking about the Grandfather Paradox, and some of the other ideals regarding the nature of time, I realized that there is a solution.

If we are ONE in all times existent, then if "you" went back into "your" time and killed "your" Grandfather, I think that only "your" consciousness would be altered.

The flow of events for "you" only would be effected, and not anyones elses.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

In thinking about the Grandfather Paradox, and some of the other ideals regarding the nature of time, I realized that there is a solution.

If we are ONE in all times existent, then if "you" went back into "your" time and killed "your" Grandfather, I think that only "your" consciousness would be altered.

The flow of events for "you" only would be effected, and not anyones elses
Click to expand...

And this is the kind of 'soloution' i was on about. I dont think i mentioned it in my previous posts, but time travel where, like you say is only for YOU and your consciene, is probable, thus eliminating the threat of paradox, like its virtual or sumthing. I'm not saying i dont agree with that line of reasoning. What im saying is that any type of time travel which DOESN'T have a viable explanation of the paradoxes inherent, cannot be logical. But since, there hasn't been any conclusive proof of your solution (although i think it may be one of the more likely ones) time travel is at the moment not just technically impossible but logically impossible, at least until paradox solutions like yours can be proven. If you read my original post, its says clearly that time travel is only logically impossible AS OF TODAY, at least until a solution has been found for the paradoxes, and proven.

And as for your thoughts about time not being linear, thats entirely down to difference of opinion, and so time travel cannot be disprooved/prooved 100% until time has been proven/not proven linear.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

difference of opinion, and so time travel cannot be disprooved/prooved 100% until time has been proven/not proven linear.
Click to expand...

A difference of opinion...yes...you are correct.
However, since you are applying logic to the problem, you must support any "conclusions" on more than one or several "pieces" that make up the foundation of any such "conclusion(s)".

I have the opinion that Time is non-linear...and this ideal is based upon alot of supporting "pieces" that have been used in the foundation of my opinion.

To list them all in this thread would be both time consuming and lengthy...merely repeating everything already contributed by myelf and others.

To imagine that anything is an infinite line goes against everything we have been able to perceive so far. Nothing in existence, resembles a linear nature, when the essences are observed.

Even a lazer beam, appearing to be a linear beam of light, when its basic composition is discovered, it turns out NOT to be linear, but following a spiral, waveform.

This, of course, is only one example, and the list goes on and on.

Thus, even if at this point we offer is merely an opinion, that opinion based upon a solid foundation, allowing us to progress to the next level and perhaps set up the possibility of acheiving time travel.


If one is to coinsider that time is linear, then some problems pop up. If you were to travel back to 1900 and meet up with Joe, you have a short conversation with him, then return to 2006, several problems exist.

First, now that you have returned to 2006, Joe, from your point of view in 2006 is dead. Joe, on the other hand, from his point of view in 1900, isnt dead.

So, we have two points of view. 1900 and 2006. Both of you are alive from your point of view. If this is occuring, then in essence, you both are existing at the same time, the only seperation is your point of view.

Joe is still alive, you are still alive..for this to be so, then time can not be linear, but occupies the same point in space, or the same space in point. This can be supported by the Tablet of Hermes, Gospel of Thomas, and dozens of other texts.


To refute those writings and what science is "finding out" in modern times lends to ideal that these authors knew quite-a-bit about the essences of existence. The information contained within those texts are being proven correct, and are so interwoven with solid connections, it makes it very difficult to ignore there foundations.

If you want to debate those "pieces" of the non-linear foundation, read the related texts that establish this "opinion".
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

So, we have two points of view. 1900 and 2006. Both of you are alive from your point of view. If this is occuring, then in essence, you both are existing at the same time, the only seperation is your point of view.

Joe is still alive, you are still alive..for this to be so, then time can not be linear, but occupies the same point in space, or the same space in point. This can be supported by the Tablet of Hermes, Gospel of Thomas, and dozens of other texts.
Click to expand...

What you say here does not proove that time is not linear, or even give evidence. It is obvious that from each persons point of view they are alive but when you say 'joe is still alive' well he isnt, because when you time travelled to him, you went back to a time when he was alive, so he was alive then from his point of view. But if you travel back to 2k6, it is not just a few 'minutes' afterwards you spoke to him. when joe is saying 'im still alive' he isnt saying that on YOUR timeline, but on his, which is in 1900. The two things are totally seperate. By time travelling you are 'jumping' the line, but jumping down or further up a straight line does not therefore make it no longer straight. You say you both occupy the same point in spacetime, and that you are both thinking your thought at the same time, but that is only from your respective viewpoints. Your argument is vague and does not go in anyway to supporting the non-linear view, because you are talking about viewpoint. joe's viewpoint DOES NOT occupy the same point, it occupied a point 106 years ago... i dont see how this argument is in any way supporting your view... because 'joe is still alive, you are still alive' is not true. joe may say it 5 minutes after you leave, but by leaving his time, you are going forward, or skipping 106 years, which makes the whole you both being alive at the same time moot.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

This is all covered in many threads. I dont like repeating myself, over and over again. I started the Key of Time Thread with the intention of having some sort of progress achieved.

This isnt your fault, since it is one of "my" pet peeves. I understand your thinking about the nature of time, and used to think the same thing. However, when diving into ancient texts and comparing notes with other posters, I realized I was in-correct.

To list the reasons for the change of mind would be posting alot of information all over again. This in itself establishes the idea of emerging patterns. If you take a good look at TTI, it definitely follows a pattern.

The same subjects revolve around almost on a set time table. The threads die out and get revivied within another thread.

You have to make the connections between all the facts. To view a particular item all by itself, will leave it open to arguement. By bringing in the rest of the foundation, then you can see the pattern of the nature of time emerge.

As far as my example, what was meant to be stressed is Point of View and Conscious Awarness.

If the Tablet of Hermes is correct, and time is motionless, and the only seperation of events is consciousness, then the difference between 1900 and 2006 is from ones point of view and conscious awareness.

And to state that something exists that is linear and infinite doesnt make sense when compared to the information contained within those writings.

What else can you present that is linear in nature?

What writings can you bring to the table that support that time is linear?

RainmanTime has posted alot about Intention. In thinking about time travel, I started to ponder if ones intention has an effect on any chance of traveling in time.

Now understand, there are two groups at work here in TTI. One is taking a pure scientific approach, the other is using science and esoteric knowledge in the attempt to lay down the foundations for possible time travel.

Who is in which camp becomes obvious rather easily.

I have never seen either "camp" declare that time is linear. But, I could be wrong with that assumption, since there are massive amounts of information to weed through.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

Your animosity towards paradoxes is quite silly. The universe/s is/are built on paradoxes. Present/Percievable time is built on the collision between past and future. The present never really exists, but it is the only one we can observe, this is the paradox of time its self.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

greyhelium,

Not much time (ha!), but I had to jump in and validate OvrLrd's point about Time being non-linear when understood from beyond the human perception. We humans force Time to be linear via our perceptions and measurements. Just because we want it to be that way does not mean it is. There are many other standard measurements we use and assume their corresponding phenomenon are linear, but they are not. Linearity is a convenience for human understanding, but is actually a VERY VERY VERY small part of universal phenomenon.

The best scientific evidence one could cite for the non-linearity of Time is Einstein himself. Mass curves SpaceTime, which is something Einstein taught us, and furthermore he showed how Time varys with relative velocity of the observer. Is this enough scientific "evidence" for you?

But this is all really irrelevant, because you are still talking about Time as if it is a real, individual entity. It is not. Thanks to the work of Einstein, Minkowski, and so many others we have "arrived" at the understanding that Space and Time are inseparable. When you attempt to separate them and measure them individually, you induce error. This is why modern physics currently embraces the metric of SpaceTime as the more precise measurement, and how it is related to Mass.

My little R&D project is related to going one step further, and showing how when we try to separate Mass from SpaceTime that there is again error introduced. The only "real reality" when it comes to understanding the physics of our universe is the combined metric of Massive SpaceTime. This is clearly supported by our known conservation principles (Momentum and Energy) which show we can only verify conservation when we examine mixed-metrics of Mass, Space, and Time (which is exactly what Momentum and Energy are!).

Later,
RMT
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

In thinking about the Grandfather Paradox, and some of the other ideals regarding the nature of time, I realized that there is a solution.

If we are ONE in all times existent, then if "you" went back into "your" time and killed "your" Grandfather, I think that only "your" consciousness would be altered.

The flow of events for "you" only would be effected, and not anyones elses.
Click to expand...

if you kill someone its not just your existence you change, people wouldnt meet your parents, which would affect many people, not just your individual self.

and with regards to going back. i think this website talks about it somewhere but how do you tell a computer what time you want to go back too? unless your to say its a random guess.
i wouldnt say i believe time is linear, it may very well be curved, or even a circle (in which case time travel couldnt exist!), but 1 thing i do think is it moves in only one direction
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

"but 1 thing i do think is it moves in only one direction"

Correction, time itself does not move. Conciousness moves through it. refer to the Key of Time thread by ovrlrdlegion.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

So, we have two points of view. 1900 and 2006. Both of you are alive from your point of view. If this is occuring, then in essence, you both are existing at the same time, the only seperation is your point of view.

Joe is still alive, you are still alive..for this to be so, then time can not be linear, but occupies the same point in space,
Click to expand...

thanks! u changed my opinion again! the idea that time occupies the same point in space all the time seems 2 make more sense 2 me.
but it only makes me believe even more that its impossible 2 travel back. if time is a force seperating things, but it doesnt 'move', then i dont see how you can believe it possible to go back. for if everything exists as one, by my understanding means past events, as well as future events all exist at the same time, (kinda sayin that the future is already written.. thou i dont believe this)
how could you account for this?
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

The future has infinite outcomes, though it is already written. Time is like thread, or a rope. Long fibers are like the lines through time. They are woven together to make a the thread or rope and stretched out end to end in a long line. Then the two ends are tied together, making a large circle.

the point of the visual is that even though the future is already written, and the paths you take are already presculpted, it is your job as a living physical entity to choose that path. That is our purpose.

With that regard time travel is possible. However your prime timelime will not change, if you make changes to the past. And your future may not end up how you think, if you peak in on it. And no matter which direction you travel you will always end up home in the time-"frame" after the one you left, because you can only travel time between time-"frames" and you may not disrupt the time flow.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

the point of the visual is that even though the future is already written
Click to expand...

I don't believe this to be true, one might say that "all" futures are mapped out, but this model assumes an essentially infinite number of parallel universes where all possibilities are taken into account, seemingly an impossibly large model. One must keep choice alive and well, or we all live in a predestined, non-freewill world. I personally think only "relavistic" time travel into the future is possible. If it is proven at some point that time travel to the past is impossible, then only one-way trips to the future will be possible. Maybe this is why we are not being flooded with time travelers. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

Friend Wanderer of EarthTR125.0121

Two important things.

One

Time and space exist within a shell of choronotonic particles. If you could get outside this shell all time and space would have taken place. It would be like a complex series of lines and curves all moving and not moving at the same time. That is called the Temporal Cortex.

We take action and we have free will only that its already done. No divine intervention nor anything. It is the product of our desicions. However outside timespace past present and future all collide into one single sphere.

Two

There is not an infinite amount of multiple realities. It is a fixed number, with multiple variations. As far as we know there are no more than 230 possible realities. All others simple become fractured originalities and fail to come into being. However, there are supposed to be nearly 360, but as you get outside the median existence becomes less possible and the resulting universes become intolerable for all forms of life, be it energy, organic, mineral etc.

Until later becomes now.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

T001,

There is not an infinite amount of multiple realities. It is a fixed number, with multiple variations. As far as we know there are no more than 230 possible realities.
Click to expand...

Huh?

If, for example, I have 230 electrons I have a minimum of 460 possible quantum states considering only the spin state, up or down, for each electron.

but as you get outside the median existence becomes less possible and the resulting universes become intolerable for all forms of life
Click to expand...

Median existence? "Median" is a statistical average indicating that there are more outcomes but n-1 values fall below and n-1 values fall above the "median" value, i.e. half of the outcomes are greater than the median and half are less than the median.

So I have to ask: please indicate as best you can how the number "230" is derived and why "360" is indicated as another theoretical possibility.
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

"With that regard time travel is possible. However your prime timelime will not change, if you make changes to the past. "
Click to expand...


"Journeys into the past are impossible. Time never runs backwards for any nucleon, meaning that no nucleon ever absorbs more gravitons than it has emitted.
This can be expressed equivalently by saying that absolute gravitational potential cannot become negative under any circumstances anywhere. The possible range of absolute values of gravitational potential extend from +c2 for infinitely diffuse matter to zero for critically compact matter, or the boundary of the Universe in the view of any observer. The latter case is only another way of expressing the fact that the Universe is a closed quantum dynamical system.
Furthermore, it is impossible for an observer fermion to visit two 'age-states' of an observed fermion in 'time-reversed' order
No fermion can visit (i.e. return to an earlier age of its own from) its own future, because it never absorbs more gravitons than it has emitted. Every fermion 'feels' its own time passing at a rate identical to that 'feeling' of every other fermion, because fermions do not re-absorb any gravitons they have just emitted. But any fermion can get the impression that time is elapsing more slowly for another fermion, because it or yet other fermions can absorb some (but not all) of the gravitons emitted by the other fermion. The restriction 'but not all' in the previous sentence implies that whatever effects the relative time difference rates can produce, time is still always progressing in the positive finite direction for all fermions whatsoever. The Universe was 'wound-up' by matter creation at the beginning, and is 'running-down' ever since without any temporary reversals or oscillations, not even locally.
All possible journeys into the future are of such a kind that some fermions age by a larger amount while other fermions are ageing by a lesser amount, in the comparative sense. The quantum mechanical 'concerted action' aspect of the machine called 'Universe' is such that all visible relative motion without any exception produces a corresponding relative age discrepancy between object and observer, whereby it is always the one which has moved less relative to the rest of the Universe which has aged less than the other, i.e. has contributed fewer gravitons towards parametric time. It is fairly obvious, in a general way, why this must be so: To produce individualised motion relative to the rest of the Universe, the expansion of the Universe must be harnessed in a way consuming gravitons for the required gravitational forces (shifts of stationary quantum states), thus subtracting them from time. "

We can see the past, but cannot go there.
We cannot see the future, but we can go there 'faster than normal'.

From the Akinetic relativity theory:
http://www.ultimate-physics.de/akin1.htm
 
Re: Only \'Rewinded\' time is logically possible

From what I have studied, Tachyons have the ability to travel forward, or back through Time.

A Question I have often pondered for quite some "Time" - is how would you convert yourself into an energy form suitable that would allow these Tachyon emmisions to make it feasable to transport you in either direction?

Speculating as to how it could be done, what processes would this invlolve?
 
Back
Top