Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time machine
- Thread starter Mop
- Start date
Hercules
Temporal Navigator
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
Thanks Mop for the link. That is the method I was pursuing for Time Travel. Keep it coming. If CERN succeeds in creating Rotating Singularities, BINGO!
DONUT-SHAPED SINGULARITY=PASSAGE INTO ALTERNATE WORLDLINE.
Sounds familiar?
Thanks Mop for the link. That is the method I was pursuing for Time Travel. Keep it coming. If CERN succeeds in creating Rotating Singularities, BINGO!
DONUT-SHAPED SINGULARITY=PASSAGE INTO ALTERNATE WORLDLINE.
Sounds familiar?
IgnorantSentient
Chrono Cadet
IIT is, to be short, really cool. I'm not suprised they're the ones to figure this sort of thing out.
Interesting, I guess!
Can virtual johns come into reality by the nudity of two naked singularities?
Perhaps, only by an act of getting together!
Or is that by two humans of each gender?
There are still some concepts not known yet, and it is a long way there to a formal union!
Can virtual johns come into reality by the nudity of two naked singularities?
Perhaps, only by an act of getting together!
Or is that by two humans of each gender?
There are still some concepts not known yet, and it is a long way there to a formal union!
TTraveler83
Temporal Novice
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
Don't know how serious you guys are into researching this stuff, but if they do succeed in creathing this donut and making it possible for us to time travel what proposed methods of determining where you will end up could anyone suggest? how accureate would the time traveled be? who s to say one single soul would not see this even occour from "back then" and todays american society end up communist? any input would be appreciated how would you go about handling these situations? should i put this in a new post?
Don't know how serious you guys are into researching this stuff, but if they do succeed in creathing this donut and making it possible for us to time travel what proposed methods of determining where you will end up could anyone suggest? how accureate would the time traveled be? who s to say one single soul would not see this even occour from "back then" and todays american society end up communist? any input would be appreciated how would you go about handling these situations? should i put this in a new post?
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
Well, first that is up to the scientists, but lets just say that at least some are working on a quantum computer. Now, one has been made already that did a 3 x 5 == 15 multiply, but still they are in early stages, and I have not look up anything else about them lately.
So, what does a quantum computer do anyway? Much like quantum theory, which deals with the very small, and changes general relativity by Einstein. How much? Well, not everything is known yet, but there are weird things with quantum theory, and the very small. One is the thinking that there parallel universes, and such there may be universes some ahead and some behind since the Big Bang that started it all.
So, a quantum computer would be made to handle the calculations that would make such a thing possible, and that still can only probably be explained fully when they can finally make a bigger one.
A quantum computer is not like a ordinary computer. An ordinary computer does a math operation in a series of steps to get a result in the end, and a program has a series of computer code lines to make it all work to get the desired calculation. With a quantum computer, the calculation is done in one step, and it only takes one step. So any calculation which they surmise using parallel universes has like each universe doing one of the series of computer code steps, so when the result comes back, it is all done at once.
Now, that may seem strange, but that is quantum theory and quantum mechanices. So larger calculations that may take years by an ordinary computer (even a very faster ordinary computer) may only take a real small amount of time with a quantum computer.
How fast? Well, complex calculations would seem to hardly take no time at all! In complex math calculations, a very long series of steps have to be done, over and over again to get all the results that are needed. With a quantum computer, those same calculations do not have to be done over and over again to get the results, as the result comes in after the first series of steps, since it is done all at once.
Ordinary computer perhaps like an example say:
5 x 3 = 15
Add result to next calculation.
4 x 5 = 20
Add result to first result.
15 + 20 = 35.
Next step and on and on for a complex math calculation.
Quantum computer can't really be shown but would only involve one step.
5 x 3 + 4 x 5 = 35 or similiar but only shown for effect.
Even though you say an ordinary computer could do that the same, it is the complex equations used that are way more complex than what I am showing for any math above.
It would involve Calculus, which has Limits and many steps that have to be done and complex math forumlas.
Well, first that is up to the scientists, but lets just say that at least some are working on a quantum computer. Now, one has been made already that did a 3 x 5 == 15 multiply, but still they are in early stages, and I have not look up anything else about them lately.
So, what does a quantum computer do anyway? Much like quantum theory, which deals with the very small, and changes general relativity by Einstein. How much? Well, not everything is known yet, but there are weird things with quantum theory, and the very small. One is the thinking that there parallel universes, and such there may be universes some ahead and some behind since the Big Bang that started it all.
So, a quantum computer would be made to handle the calculations that would make such a thing possible, and that still can only probably be explained fully when they can finally make a bigger one.
A quantum computer is not like a ordinary computer. An ordinary computer does a math operation in a series of steps to get a result in the end, and a program has a series of computer code lines to make it all work to get the desired calculation. With a quantum computer, the calculation is done in one step, and it only takes one step. So any calculation which they surmise using parallel universes has like each universe doing one of the series of computer code steps, so when the result comes back, it is all done at once.
Now, that may seem strange, but that is quantum theory and quantum mechanices. So larger calculations that may take years by an ordinary computer (even a very faster ordinary computer) may only take a real small amount of time with a quantum computer.
How fast? Well, complex calculations would seem to hardly take no time at all! In complex math calculations, a very long series of steps have to be done, over and over again to get all the results that are needed. With a quantum computer, those same calculations do not have to be done over and over again to get the results, as the result comes in after the first series of steps, since it is done all at once.
Ordinary computer perhaps like an example say:
5 x 3 = 15
Add result to next calculation.
4 x 5 = 20
Add result to first result.
15 + 20 = 35.
Next step and on and on for a complex math calculation.
Quantum computer can't really be shown but would only involve one step.
5 x 3 + 4 x 5 = 35 or similiar but only shown for effect.
Even though you say an ordinary computer could do that the same, it is the complex equations used that are way more complex than what I am showing for any math above.
It would involve Calculus, which has Limits and many steps that have to be done and complex math forumlas.
MadIce
Chrono Cadet
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
Let's get back to John Titor's laser beam picture.
He wrote about that picture:
The reason the laser beam would bend in the picture (assume the time machine is real) is because the spacetime in its surroundings is warped. It's impossible for the light beam to bend while the surroundings are not. What you see is light. That means everything in the neighbourhood, including the man and his cigar, will be bend. And not only light will be distorted like that. That's all very unhealthy. This is why the wormhole has to be huge: To escape from those forces. Francisco Lobo calculated the minimum radius of the throat of a wormhole for a human with a length of 2 meters to safely traverse the wormhole. It turns out to be 10 kilometers. I suppose that doesn't fit on the backseat of his '67 Chevy. I checked what values others came up with. Here are the results:
Francisco Lobo: 10 kilometers.
You can find more of his work in Traversable Wormholes, Time Machines & Warp Drives.
Peter Kuhfittig: 660,000,000 kilometers.
You can find more of his work in Traversable Wormholes & the Weak Energy Condition.
Christopher Fewster and Thomas Roman: 100,000 kilometers.
You can find more of their work in Energy Conditions & Quantum Inequalities I and Energy Conditions & Quantum Inequalities II.
Lobo's paper describes a non-rotating wormhole. Titor's time machine seems to be based on rotation, so the last two papers better fit that model. Rotating wormholes tend to be larger than non-rotating ones. As you can read Fewster and Ford are not convinced that Kuhfittig's model actually works. Still the other two have sizes which won't fit a '67 Chevy. I don't dare to ask these gentlemen whether their wormholes would be safe on the surface of the Earth.
Click the above image for a full-size version. The original cartoon can be found here: On Titor and Time Travel by ChairLegOfTruth/PlanetNiles.
Let's get back to John Titor's laser beam picture.
He wrote about that picture:
The picture has been discussed at length in: John Titor's Laser Picture Was FAKED - Proof by Late Night Owl.
The reason the laser beam would bend in the picture (assume the time machine is real) is because the spacetime in its surroundings is warped. It's impossible for the light beam to bend while the surroundings are not. What you see is light. That means everything in the neighbourhood, including the man and his cigar, will be bend. And not only light will be distorted like that. That's all very unhealthy. This is why the wormhole has to be huge: To escape from those forces. Francisco Lobo calculated the minimum radius of the throat of a wormhole for a human with a length of 2 meters to safely traverse the wormhole. It turns out to be 10 kilometers. I suppose that doesn't fit on the backseat of his '67 Chevy. I checked what values others came up with. Here are the results:
Francisco Lobo: 10 kilometers.
Energy conditions, traversable wormholes and dust shells by Francisco S.N. Lobo.
You can find more of his work in Traversable Wormholes, Time Machines & Warp Drives.
Peter Kuhfittig: 660,000,000 kilometers.
Can a wormhole supported by only small amounts of exotic matter really be traversable? by Peter K.F. Kuhfittig.
You can find more of his work in Traversable Wormholes & the Weak Energy Condition.
Christopher Fewster and Thomas Roman: 100,000 kilometers.
On wormholes with arbitrarily small quantities of exotic matter by C.J. Fewster and T.A. Roman.
You can find more of their work in Energy Conditions & Quantum Inequalities I and Energy Conditions & Quantum Inequalities II.
Lobo's paper describes a non-rotating wormhole. Titor's time machine seems to be based on rotation, so the last two papers better fit that model. Rotating wormholes tend to be larger than non-rotating ones. As you can read Fewster and Ford are not convinced that Kuhfittig's model actually works. Still the other two have sizes which won't fit a '67 Chevy. I don't dare to ask these gentlemen whether their wormholes would be safe on the surface of the Earth.
Click the above image for a full-size version. The original cartoon can be found here: On Titor and Time Travel by ChairLegOfTruth/PlanetNiles.
MadIce
Chrono Cadet
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
BTW: Here is the original (free) paper:
BTW: Here is the original (free) paper:
A new time-machine model with compact vacuum core by Amos Ori.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
While I agree that all mass in the car should be affected by the gravity that is bending the laser, some have a hard time swallowing this. That is why I just stop at the other light in the picture. Forget about the car and the person and the cigar. If the LIGHT from the beam is being bent, why isn't the LIGHT from the car, the person's arm, and the cigar ALSO being bent into the same field shape that the laser is being bent? Hmmmmm?
I'd like Herc, MEM, or some of the other Titor-curious folks to take a shot at explaining that one away. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
RMT
Thank you, MadIce. Of the few (VERY few) exhibits that Titor offered to try to substantiate his claims, this one is certainly the easiest to falsify, as it has been. And let's not forget the most important point of this falsification, which is stated well in the "anomalies" link you provided:
THAT is truly the whole point when it comes to Titor. Once you add to this that his predictions were weak guesses, in some cases, and TOTALLY off base in many others, a scientific postion would be to question & attempt to falsify all his other statements. Some choose to try to validate them, rather than try to falsify them, and they get caught up in the Titor Machine.
While I agree that all mass in the car should be affected by the gravity that is bending the laser, some have a hard time swallowing this. That is why I just stop at the other light in the picture. Forget about the car and the person and the cigar. If the LIGHT from the beam is being bent, why isn't the LIGHT from the car, the person's arm, and the cigar ALSO being bent into the same field shape that the laser is being bent? Hmmmmm?
I'd like Herc, MEM, or some of the other Titor-curious folks to take a shot at explaining that one away. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
RMT
Einstein
Dimensional Traveler
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
I agree totally with what you say. The picture clearly shows the exact same thing. But this situation is not possible. It's similar to having an immovable object in the presence of an unstopable force. I recognize this picture as a paradox. The occupants of the car can not exist in the presence of a close proximity gravitational distortion like that pictured. Gravitational force does not shear off like what is pictured. Facts are facts. It's kind of hard to get by this one big flaw in the Titor story. Of course I've had occasion to meet someone like Titor in my life. He was a con artist. It was a game with him. And quite often he would score points by telling a successful lie. But after a while it gets boring. Most con artists use their skills to dupe you out of your money. But Titor's story is completely unverifiable. That little fact right there is what my con artist buddy and Titor have in common. They both would tell unverifiable stories.
I agree totally with what you say. The picture clearly shows the exact same thing. But this situation is not possible. It's similar to having an immovable object in the presence of an unstopable force. I recognize this picture as a paradox. The occupants of the car can not exist in the presence of a close proximity gravitational distortion like that pictured. Gravitational force does not shear off like what is pictured. Facts are facts. It's kind of hard to get by this one big flaw in the Titor story. Of course I've had occasion to meet someone like Titor in my life. He was a con artist. It was a game with him. And quite often he would score points by telling a successful lie. But after a while it gets boring. Most con artists use their skills to dupe you out of your money. But Titor's story is completely unverifiable. That little fact right there is what my con artist buddy and Titor have in common. They both would tell unverifiable stories.
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
Please explain what you mean. I don't understand why it is impossible for a steep gravitional gradient to exist outside the car. I realize this is impossible with today's technology but why would it be impossible if you could manipulate gravity as titor claimed.
I'm not trying to refute what you say. I'm just looking for your reasoning behind your statement.
Please explain what you mean. I don't understand why it is impossible for a steep gravitional gradient to exist outside the car. I realize this is impossible with today's technology but why would it be impossible if you could manipulate gravity as titor claimed.
I'm not trying to refute what you say. I'm just looking for your reasoning behind your statement.
Einstein
Dimensional Traveler
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
I can tell you haven't had any schooling in physics at all. The reason the steep gravitational gradient can't exist outside the car and not inside the car is because of the inverse square force law. All force fields fall off in intensity at the rate of 1/r^2. Yet if you look closely at the picture, you will see that the laser beam is moving in a straight line and then starts to rapidly fall off outside the vehicle. That is the part that is not possible. The entire beam should be bent along with distortion to all other objects that light hits. There is not even a way in nature that this could happen. There is nothing in nature that shields against the force of gravity. So even when we are able to manipulate gravity we will still be bound by this simple law of physics that governs the way force fields fall off in intensity.
I can tell you haven't had any schooling in physics at all. The reason the steep gravitational gradient can't exist outside the car and not inside the car is because of the inverse square force law. All force fields fall off in intensity at the rate of 1/r^2. Yet if you look closely at the picture, you will see that the laser beam is moving in a straight line and then starts to rapidly fall off outside the vehicle. That is the part that is not possible. The entire beam should be bent along with distortion to all other objects that light hits. There is not even a way in nature that this could happen. There is nothing in nature that shields against the force of gravity. So even when we are able to manipulate gravity we will still be bound by this simple law of physics that governs the way force fields fall off in intensity.
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
Do you want to get into a pissing match or do you want to have a rational discussion about the points raised?
If the light hitting the beam comes from the flash of the camera inside the car then it is absolutely possible that the beam appears to bend.
I do think MadIce has a good point. It is not clear to me that the light is bending inside the car. It could be. It also could appear that way due to the angle of the camera to the light. Sort of like it looks when a plane taking off and is banking towards you it appears that the plane is floating motionless is air.
I'm not saying the picture is real. I am saying that I don't see "proof" it is fake. But maybe you can convince me.
Do you want to get into a pissing match or do you want to have a rational discussion about the points raised?
If the light hitting the beam comes from the flash of the camera inside the car then it is absolutely possible that the beam appears to bend.
I do think MadIce has a good point. It is not clear to me that the light is bending inside the car. It could be. It also could appear that way due to the angle of the camera to the light. Sort of like it looks when a plane taking off and is banking towards you it appears that the plane is floating motionless is air.
I'm not saying the picture is real. I am saying that I don't see "proof" it is fake. But maybe you can convince me.
Einstein
Dimensional Traveler
Re: Nature.com: Gravity doughnut promises time mac
I do believe I gave you real cold hard scientific fact that does undeniably prove the picture is fake and what it depicts is fake. It does seem as if you've dismissed the facts and are still not convinced. I smell a con. You can't con me dude. You are trying to play a con game and it's not working. I just don't believe you really are that ignorant of the reality we live in.
I do believe I gave you real cold hard scientific fact that does undeniably prove the picture is fake and what it depicts is fake. It does seem as if you've dismissed the facts and are still not convinced. I smell a con. You can't con me dude. You are trying to play a con game and it's not working. I just don't believe you really are that ignorant of the reality we live in.