Modern Technology Depicted In Ancient Picture
- Thread starter Eddy_P
- Start date
Hi Eddie,
The problem I have with this, (one of them) is that the picture only depicts hands, and where is the proof that this picture is in fact, from the 1800's? It seems too clear and most pics from that era are actually sepia in tone, not black and white.
On the website itself, the "evidence" for tt bringing back compact discs.....
If the tt's were there to warn the people of future wars......well, it didn't work, did it. Holocausts, genocides and death and mayam still occured, still happened. So the entire visit meant nothing if that was in fact, their hopes, to prevent serious wars. Oh well. Can't blame a guy for trying, huh?
The problem I have with this, (one of them) is that the picture only depicts hands, and where is the proof that this picture is in fact, from the 1800's? It seems too clear and most pics from that era are actually sepia in tone, not black and white.
On the website itself, the "evidence" for tt bringing back compact discs.....
If the tt's were there to warn the people of future wars......well, it didn't work, did it. Holocausts, genocides and death and mayam still occured, still happened. So the entire visit meant nothing if that was in fact, their hopes, to prevent serious wars. Oh well. Can't blame a guy for trying, huh?
Eddy_P
Temporal Novice
A picture from America in the mid 1800s shows a group of men holding a plastic Compact Disk Case.
On page 27 of the Mormon publication (6/95) "Truth Restored" is a picture of the Eight Witnesses and Smith holding the above box, and is partly entitled "and held in their hands the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated".
Isn’t it just glass ?
A similar question has been previously asked of Ronald Pegg in 2001…
His answer was as follows (used with permission)..
It does look like a glass plate, doesn't it, and historically, photographic glass plates of that size were invented in that century, around the year Joseph Smith took possession of his "religious" articles. Add to this the fact that plastic was not discovered until much later, the notion of it being a plastic compact disk container seems to go against logic.
So we must carefully evaluate all the evidence to enable us to make a conclusion whether this is a picture of a glass (photographic) plate or a plastic compact disk container.
Glass Plate
In 1822 the "Camera", and in 1826 "Photography" were invented by Joseph Niepce. These devices utilized photographic glass "plates" and varied in size, but were approximately six to eight inches square and contained an image on the face of the glass when exposed. So they either had an image on them when they were exposed, or were blank and clear before they were exposed. Other than that, there was no content within the plate itself.
Plastic Container
On page 27 of the Mormon publication (6/95) "Truth Restored" is a picture of the Eight Witnesses and Smith holding the above box, and is partly entitled "and held in their hands the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated".
On the 'Brief Explanation About' page of The Book of Mormon, it is explained that "the teachings of the prophets; the history by Mormon; a commentary by Moroni; and a record of the Jews" were contained in these plates.
(Could a blank glass plate contain all that information ?)
One plate in particular, The Plate of Brass, is said to have contained "the five books of Moses, a record of the Jews, and also the prophecies of the holy prophets". These are referring to the Pentateuch, the Historical Writings (of Kings and Chronicles for example), and the Prophetic books.
Comparison
Visual evidence from the above picture gives that either a glass plate or a plastic compact disk container is being held in the person's hand.
Now to take into account what was contained in that plate.
Does a blank, unexposed (or exposed) glass photographic plate (of the mid 1800s) contain "the five books of Moses, the Historical Writings of the Jews, and the prophecies of the holy prophets" ?
NO
This is the Holy Bible CD-Rom. It is a brass colour.
A compact disk looks somewhat like a plate.
Compact disks are normally housed in a plastic container.
They can contain much information.
Does this Brass Plate contain "the five books of Moses, the Historical Writings of the Jews, and the prophecies of the holy prophets" ?
YES
From the visual and documented evidence, the glass photographic plate is NOT the answer.
Pegg’s Conclusion was that the Mormon prophet was describing a specific compact disk, being ‘brass’ in colour, that was held in a plastic cd-case (as earlier illustrated), being the Holy Bible CD-Rom.
Isn’t all this just an opinion ?
No. It is a conclusion based upon the presented evidence by the Mormon witnesses and associated illustration.
1. The Mormon witnesses are holding either a clear a) glass, or b) plastic square container.
Plastics were not yet developed at that time in the early to mid 1800s in America, so the first presumption is that is has to be a glass plate (probably photographic).
BUT
2. The Mormon witnesses document and explain what this “plate†contained…
"the teachings of the prophets; the history by Mormon; a commentary by Moroni; and a record of the Jews"
For over 170 years this did not seem to make sense, as the ‘glass plate’ was transparent thus not containing any images nor information.
Pegg’s theory is that is it a plastic cd-case that held the HOLY BIBLE cd-rom (due to Time Travel, etc, etc.)
Method
Compare the Mormon descriptions with the contents of
1. a blank mid 1800s glass plate.
2. A mid 1990s plastic cd-case that contained the ‘Holy bible’ cd-rom (described in other Mormon texts as “The Plate of Brass†[due to its brass colour]).
Option 2 provides an exact match of details.
Conclusion.
The object held and illustrated in the mid 1800s and described by Joseph Smith (elsewhere as a ‘seer stone’) was the HOLY BIBLE compact disk.
Further Investigation
Joseph Smith in 1827 reports that "Also, there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim- deposited with the plates".
Ronald Pegg claims that this testimony declared at the front of the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith accounts for the two cd-roms – Ancients and Grolier - where:
The "stones" = the compact disks;
The "breastplate" = the base-plate that holds a compact disk in place;
The "silver bows" = the two plastic cases (seen being held in the Mormon picture).
This is what I derive from the citations…
Golden Plates = book-like metal plates.
“’Interpreters’, a pair of crystals joined in the form of a large pair of spectacles†= a two part joined, opened plastic cd-case (with the black breast-plate removed).
Physical Test:
Grab a mid 1990s plastic cd-case, open it up, take out the black base-plate, put them to your eyes and look in a mirror - they look like large crystal (ie. glass-like) spectacles.
This extra bit of information adds strength to Pegg’s claim, as an opened plastic cd-case DOES look like spectacles - being a reasonable description by a mid 1800s person.
Aksed elsewhere…
The CDs are the other ‘artefacts’ described by Smith as
"Also, there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim- deposited with the plates".
The "stones" = the compact disks;
The "breastplate" = the base-plate that holds a compact disk in place;
The "silver bows" = the two plastic cases (seen being held in the Mormon picture).
(See the earlier Further Investigation section.)
To setup, boot, and run a mid 1990s PC386 (which the time travellers utilized), a package of floppy and compact disks were required.
These are documented in the BofM.
Extract from p52, World Breaking Discoveries - A New Era Begins (used with permission)…
Why 8 cd-roms and 16 floppy disks ?
Ronald Pegg found that this number of disks (including the four ones mentioned) was required to set up and boot a specific early 1990s 386PC computer system.
4 + 4 = 8 compact disks plus 16 floppy disks.
For a translation of 1Nephi 16:10 that derives ‘a smooth flat cd-case that opens out, containing a thin circle restrained by a round shank (ie. a compact disk held by the central retaining pins of the ‘breast plate’)’, see p53 of WBD book.
The compact disks as such are not specifically mentioned, but many descriptions and references to them are made in the Book of Mormon.
One of the most often asked questions is
“Why did they take back a 386 personal desktop computer ?â€
It was the minimum system that would run the four particular cd-roms, and more importantly, it was similar to the one utilized by Ronald Pegg in the mid 1990s.
Unlike prior documented ‘prophets’ who perceived the visiting Time Travellers as ‘Angels’, a computer as an ‘Oracle’, and compact disks as ‘Wheels, Plates, or Stones’, Pegg was able to identify the technology being used, and thus, did not default to putting a ‘religious’ interpretation or context to his discoveries.
Asked previously…
This ‘visit’ was part of an overall scheme to correct the spawning of False Religions due to a time travel experiment that went wrong.
(Very long explanation. See summary page ‘The Big Picture’ of the News Headlines section on the WBD website.)
Unable to break the laws of time travel, back-steps can not change history.
The only way to ‘fix’ things is to place ‘markers’ in all the world’s ancient texts that at the time are not understood by everyone, but at a certain time, the named ‘future’ person will find the clues and put it all together.
Pegg was that historical person.
How can a cd or cd-case be called a ‘stone’ ?
What I have been calling a cd-case is in fact called a Jewel case.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_case
This is why Smith, in the Book of Mormon, calls a cd-case a “stoneâ€.
A ‘stone’ relates to a “jewelâ€, thus the association of ‘plate’ and/or ‘stone’ to a jewel case and/or compact disk.
.
On page 27 of the Mormon publication (6/95) "Truth Restored" is a picture of the Eight Witnesses and Smith holding the above box, and is partly entitled "and held in their hands the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated".
Isn’t it just glass ?
A similar question has been previously asked of Ronald Pegg in 2001…
His answer was as follows (used with permission)..
It does look like a glass plate, doesn't it, and historically, photographic glass plates of that size were invented in that century, around the year Joseph Smith took possession of his "religious" articles. Add to this the fact that plastic was not discovered until much later, the notion of it being a plastic compact disk container seems to go against logic.
So we must carefully evaluate all the evidence to enable us to make a conclusion whether this is a picture of a glass (photographic) plate or a plastic compact disk container.
Glass Plate
In 1822 the "Camera", and in 1826 "Photography" were invented by Joseph Niepce. These devices utilized photographic glass "plates" and varied in size, but were approximately six to eight inches square and contained an image on the face of the glass when exposed. So they either had an image on them when they were exposed, or were blank and clear before they were exposed. Other than that, there was no content within the plate itself.
Plastic Container
On page 27 of the Mormon publication (6/95) "Truth Restored" is a picture of the Eight Witnesses and Smith holding the above box, and is partly entitled "and held in their hands the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated".
On the 'Brief Explanation About' page of The Book of Mormon, it is explained that "the teachings of the prophets; the history by Mormon; a commentary by Moroni; and a record of the Jews" were contained in these plates.
(Could a blank glass plate contain all that information ?)
One plate in particular, The Plate of Brass, is said to have contained "the five books of Moses, a record of the Jews, and also the prophecies of the holy prophets". These are referring to the Pentateuch, the Historical Writings (of Kings and Chronicles for example), and the Prophetic books.
Comparison
Visual evidence from the above picture gives that either a glass plate or a plastic compact disk container is being held in the person's hand.
Now to take into account what was contained in that plate.
Does a blank, unexposed (or exposed) glass photographic plate (of the mid 1800s) contain "the five books of Moses, the Historical Writings of the Jews, and the prophecies of the holy prophets" ?
NO
This is the Holy Bible CD-Rom. It is a brass colour.
A compact disk looks somewhat like a plate.
Compact disks are normally housed in a plastic container.
They can contain much information.
Does this Brass Plate contain "the five books of Moses, the Historical Writings of the Jews, and the prophecies of the holy prophets" ?
YES
From the visual and documented evidence, the glass photographic plate is NOT the answer.
Pegg’s Conclusion was that the Mormon prophet was describing a specific compact disk, being ‘brass’ in colour, that was held in a plastic cd-case (as earlier illustrated), being the Holy Bible CD-Rom.
Isn’t all this just an opinion ?
No. It is a conclusion based upon the presented evidence by the Mormon witnesses and associated illustration.
1. The Mormon witnesses are holding either a clear a) glass, or b) plastic square container.
Plastics were not yet developed at that time in the early to mid 1800s in America, so the first presumption is that is has to be a glass plate (probably photographic).
BUT
2. The Mormon witnesses document and explain what this “plate†contained…
"the teachings of the prophets; the history by Mormon; a commentary by Moroni; and a record of the Jews"
For over 170 years this did not seem to make sense, as the ‘glass plate’ was transparent thus not containing any images nor information.
Pegg’s theory is that is it a plastic cd-case that held the HOLY BIBLE cd-rom (due to Time Travel, etc, etc.)
Method
Compare the Mormon descriptions with the contents of
1. a blank mid 1800s glass plate.
2. A mid 1990s plastic cd-case that contained the ‘Holy bible’ cd-rom (described in other Mormon texts as “The Plate of Brass†[due to its brass colour]).
Option 2 provides an exact match of details.
Conclusion.
The object held and illustrated in the mid 1800s and described by Joseph Smith (elsewhere as a ‘seer stone’) was the HOLY BIBLE compact disk.
Further Investigation
Joseph Smith in 1827 reports that "Also, there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim- deposited with the plates".
Ronald Pegg claims that this testimony declared at the front of the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith accounts for the two cd-roms – Ancients and Grolier - where:
The "stones" = the compact disks;
The "breastplate" = the base-plate that holds a compact disk in place;
The "silver bows" = the two plastic cases (seen being held in the Mormon picture).
This is what I derive from the citations…
Golden Plates = book-like metal plates.
“’Interpreters’, a pair of crystals joined in the form of a large pair of spectacles†= a two part joined, opened plastic cd-case (with the black breast-plate removed).
Physical Test:
Grab a mid 1990s plastic cd-case, open it up, take out the black base-plate, put them to your eyes and look in a mirror - they look like large crystal (ie. glass-like) spectacles.
This extra bit of information adds strength to Pegg’s claim, as an opened plastic cd-case DOES look like spectacles - being a reasonable description by a mid 1800s person.
Aksed elsewhere…
.
The CDs are the other ‘artefacts’ described by Smith as
"Also, there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim- deposited with the plates".
The "stones" = the compact disks;
The "breastplate" = the base-plate that holds a compact disk in place;
The "silver bows" = the two plastic cases (seen being held in the Mormon picture).
(See the earlier Further Investigation section.)
To setup, boot, and run a mid 1990s PC386 (which the time travellers utilized), a package of floppy and compact disks were required.
These are documented in the BofM.
Extract from p52, World Breaking Discoveries - A New Era Begins (used with permission)…
Why 8 cd-roms and 16 floppy disks ?
Ronald Pegg found that this number of disks (including the four ones mentioned) was required to set up and boot a specific early 1990s 386PC computer system.
4 + 4 = 8 compact disks plus 16 floppy disks.
For a translation of 1Nephi 16:10 that derives ‘a smooth flat cd-case that opens out, containing a thin circle restrained by a round shank (ie. a compact disk held by the central retaining pins of the ‘breast plate’)’, see p53 of WBD book.
The compact disks as such are not specifically mentioned, but many descriptions and references to them are made in the Book of Mormon.
One of the most often asked questions is
“Why did they take back a 386 personal desktop computer ?â€
It was the minimum system that would run the four particular cd-roms, and more importantly, it was similar to the one utilized by Ronald Pegg in the mid 1990s.
Unlike prior documented ‘prophets’ who perceived the visiting Time Travellers as ‘Angels’, a computer as an ‘Oracle’, and compact disks as ‘Wheels, Plates, or Stones’, Pegg was able to identify the technology being used, and thus, did not default to putting a ‘religious’ interpretation or context to his discoveries.
Asked previously…
This ‘visit’ was part of an overall scheme to correct the spawning of False Religions due to a time travel experiment that went wrong.
(Very long explanation. See summary page ‘The Big Picture’ of the News Headlines section on the WBD website.)
Unable to break the laws of time travel, back-steps can not change history.
The only way to ‘fix’ things is to place ‘markers’ in all the world’s ancient texts that at the time are not understood by everyone, but at a certain time, the named ‘future’ person will find the clues and put it all together.
Pegg was that historical person.
How can a cd or cd-case be called a ‘stone’ ?
What I have been calling a cd-case is in fact called a Jewel case.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_case
This is why Smith, in the Book of Mormon, calls a cd-case a “stoneâ€.
A ‘stone’ relates to a “jewelâ€, thus the association of ‘plate’ and/or ‘stone’ to a jewel case and/or compact disk.
.
Darby
Epochal Historian
Eddy,
Are you back again? I'm not an Admin here but I think that the situation is the same as on the sites where we've encountered before. This forum isn't free advertising space for your business' books, tapes, etc. Why don't you contact Raul Burriel, the site owner, and buy some ad space and pay for your advertisements just like any other business here? (Though I recall making the same suggestion to you right here last July.)
Are you back again? I'm not an Admin here but I think that the situation is the same as on the sites where we've encountered before. This forum isn't free advertising space for your business' books, tapes, etc. Why don't you contact Raul Burriel, the site owner, and buy some ad space and pay for your advertisements just like any other business here? (Though I recall making the same suggestion to you right here last July.)
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Hi Folks,
I tend to agree with Darby. However, at the same time (no pun intended), I can see that discussing the theories of Mr. Pegg and those added by Mr. Pengelly, is within the discussion topic of this forum. I could lock the thread, or not. So give me some time (pun intended that time!) to think about it and consult with others.
RMT
I tend to agree with Darby. However, at the same time (no pun intended), I can see that discussing the theories of Mr. Pegg and those added by Mr. Pengelly, is within the discussion topic of this forum. I could lock the thread, or not. So give me some time (pun intended that time!) to think about it and consult with others.
RMT
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
There are several problems I have with this "claim"...
In looking at the drawing ( image )...(the image does not look like a photograph),according to you the object's in their hands would be DVD's or CD's ( cases ) like we have now.
Is then the claim then, that someone from this era went back in time ?
and why would they lug a 386 computer back in time, when a smaller piece of equipment that could play a DVD or CD would work just as well ?
Wouldn't it be easier to take a battery powered portable player back than a 386 computer ?
...it doesn't make sense why anyone with the ability to travel in time would choose to bring a computer as described with them...when there are many more appropriate choices.
Even to power-up such a device up in the past would be a feat all by itself.
The Egyptian Hieroglyph of a circle with smaller circle ( as shown and described in one of the links )... that symbol is already well known as to what it means...and no where in the context with the use of that symbol does it refer to a compact disc...that symbol is easy to find on the Hieroglyphic sites as to what it really means.
to take that symbol out of context, and claim it is a compact disc, seems to be mis-leading and calls into question the validity of the rest of the "claim".
There are many more issues I have with this "claim", but the above listed one's were what popped up first.
I am sure that some of the others here would find "problems" inherent with this "claim" if some thought was given to such an idea.
In looking at the drawing ( image )...(the image does not look like a photograph),according to you the object's in their hands would be DVD's or CD's ( cases ) like we have now.
Is then the claim then, that someone from this era went back in time ?
and why would they lug a 386 computer back in time, when a smaller piece of equipment that could play a DVD or CD would work just as well ?
Wouldn't it be easier to take a battery powered portable player back than a 386 computer ?
...it doesn't make sense why anyone with the ability to travel in time would choose to bring a computer as described with them...when there are many more appropriate choices.
Even to power-up such a device up in the past would be a feat all by itself.
The Egyptian Hieroglyph of a circle with smaller circle ( as shown and described in one of the links )... that symbol is already well known as to what it means...and no where in the context with the use of that symbol does it refer to a compact disc...that symbol is easy to find on the Hieroglyphic sites as to what it really means.
to take that symbol out of context, and claim it is a compact disc, seems to be mis-leading and calls into question the validity of the rest of the "claim".
There are many more issues I have with this "claim", but the above listed one's were what popped up first.
I am sure that some of the others here would find "problems" inherent with this "claim" if some thought was given to such an idea.
Eddy_P
Temporal Novice
It was the minimum system that would run the four particular cd-roms.
At some time in the future, someone was going to notice that the images from a certain cd-rom that run on a certain computer match to the described imagery by nearly all the ancient prophets. (From a religious perspective, this was the foretold 'unsealing of the Book with Seven Seals'.) That someone was Ronald Pegg from Queensland Australia. In contrast to all the previous ancient people who were shown the images on a computer due to some type of time travel encounter (ie. visions in a bright light by an angel), Pegg just went out and bought the current 'modern' computer package from his local shop - which just happened to include one of the cd-roms.
If a different type of computer was taken back to the past each time, then there would not be a consistent trail of clues documented in ancient texts that could be traced back (forward) to a particular computer system.
As Pegg was using the same computer and cd-roms that were documented in ancient texts, it was easy for him to identify the technology being described and the contents of the cd-roms.
Further answers to similar questions may be found HERE
Citing one glyph as the basis for refuting other claims is itself ‘out of context’.
You have not yet read the study paper.
The Egyptian study is one of about 30 different topics under investigation that shows modern objects depicted or described in ancient texts. As part of an overall examination, it is not out of context.
Brief introduction to Egyptian studies…
Hieroglyphs or 'Glyphs' are defined as 'pictures used as signs in writing'.
Egyptian scribes drew hieroglyphs upon temple walls and papyrus sheets.
When they wanted to include a crocodile in their accounts - they depicted a crocodile.
To describe a certain bird - they depicted that specific bird.
To portray various creatures - images of those creatures were depicted.
The same method applied to most objects, both natural and man-made.
To communicate and record certain events, ancient Egyptian scribes were very good at drawing representations of what they saw in the world around them.
The Australian researcher Ronald Pegg (from Queensland), asked
"Why then have modern scholars chosen to perceive some glyphs only as abstract symbols and convert others into phoenetic sounds to create 'a language' they believe was used by the ancient Egyptians ?
Why use a different word or concept instead of using what the image actually represented ?"
This was investigated. The beginning of the overview process may be found HERE
Did 'they' not find strange things embedded in rocks, strange things in caves, strange things laying around which could not be accounted for?
example of one:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/coso.html
One of these studies at a local "area" near me, are time contradictions. We believe that sometimes in the future, something will cause a implosion on earth somehow and somewhere, which in the immediate area, will send certain things back "into the past" which we are now digging up and looking at them.
is it possible that certain things on earth 'disappear' only to be found embedded in some things now?
example of one:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/coso.html
One of these studies at a local "area" near me, are time contradictions. We believe that sometimes in the future, something will cause a implosion on earth somehow and somewhere, which in the immediate area, will send certain things back "into the past" which we are now digging up and looking at them.
is it possible that certain things on earth 'disappear' only to be found embedded in some things now?
timetravelroomie
Chrono Cadet
Eddy,
I'm sorry man... the work with resins had exhisted (though unrefined under nowdays standards.) Even in the 17th century.
And besides, this could open up that whole philisophical argument that I think was once posed by douglas addams about if time travel was prooven true, it therefore would destroy any fathom of god. (You know the whole concept that time exhist in two forms, thus natural and man made, and by being able to control the natural, prooves that god doesn't exhist because only he would have the power to stop the breaking of the time barrier. )
And with that said, lets face it, you destroy God, you infact have destroyed his cloned offshoot of "Ala". To say anything about what you just did to Gods son, Jesus.
So just because you set out to proove that one religon was involved in time travel, you infact have just subjegated most of the worlds religons into aimless, powerless, and headless just because you had to proove that a mirror/glass in the 1800's was infact a cd.
Damn you sir.... eddy, stop destroying the lords Jehovah, Ala and Jesus. Just stop. You have no right to kill religous icons for anyone. And quite frankly I find your wicked evil ways revolting.
Now if you excuse me, I have a got to sacrafice that I have been putting off here for a week or so, and I promised I would get its head lopped off and cover my body in its blood in the name of Isis.
Brick
I'm sorry man... the work with resins had exhisted (though unrefined under nowdays standards.) Even in the 17th century.
And besides, this could open up that whole philisophical argument that I think was once posed by douglas addams about if time travel was prooven true, it therefore would destroy any fathom of god. (You know the whole concept that time exhist in two forms, thus natural and man made, and by being able to control the natural, prooves that god doesn't exhist because only he would have the power to stop the breaking of the time barrier. )
And with that said, lets face it, you destroy God, you infact have destroyed his cloned offshoot of "Ala". To say anything about what you just did to Gods son, Jesus.
So just because you set out to proove that one religon was involved in time travel, you infact have just subjegated most of the worlds religons into aimless, powerless, and headless just because you had to proove that a mirror/glass in the 1800's was infact a cd.
Damn you sir.... eddy, stop destroying the lords Jehovah, Ala and Jesus. Just stop. You have no right to kill religous icons for anyone. And quite frankly I find your wicked evil ways revolting.
Now if you excuse me, I have a got to sacrafice that I have been putting off here for a week or so, and I promised I would get its head lopped off and cover my body in its blood in the name of Isis.
Brick
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
Greetings Kerr,
I must admit that one thing I find intriguing about Mr. Pegg's research is that it provides "an explanation" (but not necessarily the only one) for supposedly amazing encounters reported in ancient texts. While I cannot prove my belief, I have always had the belief that mankind has a tendency to immediately attribute to God or the gods what he cannot explain with his current understanding. Or as Arthur C. Clarke once put it: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Clearly for ANY physical manifestation there must be a physical explanation for it. Whether we possess the knowledge of physics to do so is another issue altogether, and that is where I see the intrigue in Mr. Pegg's theories. I can easily believe that the encounters of Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel and others (not necessarily from the Judeo-Christian belief system) were encounters with something they could not understand nor fully explain with their limited knowledge of science and physics. Certainly, a computer to people of those days WOULD seem like magic, and one could not blame them for attributing it (and the magical pictures it showed them) to God or the gods. It is exactly what I would expect.
That said, I am not fully on board with the majority of Mr. Pegg's theories. Like I say, I am mostly intrigued because I believe many "exotic" reports from ancient history could easily be explained better with today's technology. THAT part of the story just seems to fit, even if other parts do not ring true (to me).
RMT
I must admit that one thing I find intriguing about Mr. Pegg's research is that it provides "an explanation" (but not necessarily the only one) for supposedly amazing encounters reported in ancient texts. While I cannot prove my belief, I have always had the belief that mankind has a tendency to immediately attribute to God or the gods what he cannot explain with his current understanding. Or as Arthur C. Clarke once put it: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Clearly for ANY physical manifestation there must be a physical explanation for it. Whether we possess the knowledge of physics to do so is another issue altogether, and that is where I see the intrigue in Mr. Pegg's theories. I can easily believe that the encounters of Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel and others (not necessarily from the Judeo-Christian belief system) were encounters with something they could not understand nor fully explain with their limited knowledge of science and physics. Certainly, a computer to people of those days WOULD seem like magic, and one could not blame them for attributing it (and the magical pictures it showed them) to God or the gods. It is exactly what I would expect.
That said, I am not fully on board with the majority of Mr. Pegg's theories. Like I say, I am mostly intrigued because I believe many "exotic" reports from ancient history could easily be explained better with today's technology. THAT part of the story just seems to fit, even if other parts do not ring true (to me).
RMT
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
I would like to thank you for your polite and detailed response. In following the link to the FAQ's, those did address the points I brought up and I apologize for not reading that first.
I am standing by my statement that the hieroglyph is not a reference to a compact disk. That particular symbol is well known as to what it means.
day (noun)
day, sun (noun)
daylight (noun)
There are many more examples that have that symbol in use that indicate it is not meaning a compact disc. I don't believe that it is necessary to post them all...is it ?
Granted , this does not disprove the rest of the points made with what has been brought to the table here.
Much more time has been spent by you on this than I have spent in review of this claim.
Now, Rainman, I DO find this to be very interesting. I do not feel comfortable with nodding my head in agreement until I have had more time to look at this.
The dynamics of this do follow with what I had been thinking myself...that if I were to succeed with time travel, I would leave embedded within the past clues to my being there. And the places in time I would do so, would be exactly as claimed.
A computer taken to the past would seem like a magical, godlike device, no doubt about that..however, I still believe that the ancient people's were more advanced than we give them credit for, this is something we both have discussed in the past.
I am standing by my statement that the hieroglyph is not a reference to a compact disk. That particular symbol is well known as to what it means.
day (noun)
day, sun (noun)
daylight (noun)
There are many more examples that have that symbol in use that indicate it is not meaning a compact disc. I don't believe that it is necessary to post them all...is it ?
Granted , this does not disprove the rest of the points made with what has been brought to the table here.
Much more time has been spent by you on this than I have spent in review of this claim.
Now, Rainman, I DO find this to be very interesting. I do not feel comfortable with nodding my head in agreement until I have had more time to look at this.
The dynamics of this do follow with what I had been thinking myself...that if I were to succeed with time travel, I would leave embedded within the past clues to my being there. And the places in time I would do so, would be exactly as claimed.
A computer taken to the past would seem like a magical, godlike device, no doubt about that..however, I still believe that the ancient people's were more advanced than we give them credit for, this is something we both have discussed in the past.
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
Received a phone call in the middle of the previous post, and of course the phone call required me to back out of TTI to look at some settings of my computer to give to someone else setting up their new computer.
In another forum, Rainman, you mentioned this regarding the Hebrew "symbols"...
( Quote: SPOKEN/sonic elements, along with its WRITTEN/scriptive elements, and it also has definitive mathematical elements, of which the Hebrew alphabet has been the only one we know of that has linked all three )...
when in fact, this isn't quite true.
We know more about the Hebrew "symbols" since better records have been kept, the lineage of their meaning pretty much kept intact. However, the Mayan "symbols" have the same qualities as the you described of the Hebrew "symbols", but the same level of understanding of what these symbols mean, has been lost.
I posted a little ditty about the long count in the Real Science section, which was ignored, or at least not addressed. To me, to understand the Mayan long count provides us with a window that these people knew more than is believed.
If the "scientists" of the Mayan people calculated dates far into the past and into the future, as indicated by what is understood so far...then what else did these "scientists" know that has been lost ?
When looking at what has been presented in this thread, the basic questions of WHO, WHAT, WHY, HOW and WHEN apply.
Some of these are answered, but to me don't make sense as presented with this particular claim...however, not having spent alot of time really reading this in-depth, puts me at a disadvantage with addressing specific points.
And you are correct, any physical manifestations considered "divine" will have a reasonable explaination. Even God would still be utilizing elements whose dynamics would be understood by those with the knowledge of what is taking place.
Since Ezekiel has been mentioned, I believe that he understood more than we realize, especially regarding mathematics and geometry. Pythagoras traveled to Eygpt and met with Ezekiel, which I find to be interesting considering what Pythagoras is known for...
Now, can we claim that Ezekiel learned about mathematics and geometry from a computer that was given to him or he was able to access?
That seems to be a stretch...and to me takes away from the abilities of the man, Ezekiel, himself.
In another forum, Rainman, you mentioned this regarding the Hebrew "symbols"...
( Quote: SPOKEN/sonic elements, along with its WRITTEN/scriptive elements, and it also has definitive mathematical elements, of which the Hebrew alphabet has been the only one we know of that has linked all three )...
when in fact, this isn't quite true.
We know more about the Hebrew "symbols" since better records have been kept, the lineage of their meaning pretty much kept intact. However, the Mayan "symbols" have the same qualities as the you described of the Hebrew "symbols", but the same level of understanding of what these symbols mean, has been lost.
I posted a little ditty about the long count in the Real Science section, which was ignored, or at least not addressed. To me, to understand the Mayan long count provides us with a window that these people knew more than is believed.
If the "scientists" of the Mayan people calculated dates far into the past and into the future, as indicated by what is understood so far...then what else did these "scientists" know that has been lost ?
When looking at what has been presented in this thread, the basic questions of WHO, WHAT, WHY, HOW and WHEN apply.
Some of these are answered, but to me don't make sense as presented with this particular claim...however, not having spent alot of time really reading this in-depth, puts me at a disadvantage with addressing specific points.
And you are correct, any physical manifestations considered "divine" will have a reasonable explaination. Even God would still be utilizing elements whose dynamics would be understood by those with the knowledge of what is taking place.
Since Ezekiel has been mentioned, I believe that he understood more than we realize, especially regarding mathematics and geometry. Pythagoras traveled to Eygpt and met with Ezekiel, which I find to be interesting considering what Pythagoras is known for...
Now, can we claim that Ezekiel learned about mathematics and geometry from a computer that was given to him or he was able to access?
That seems to be a stretch...and to me takes away from the abilities of the man, Ezekiel, himself.
TheCigSmokingMan
Rift Surfer
RMT,
Don't you know its a "silver based" photographic plate?....
The first form of photograph in the United States.
Because Europeans had "digital cameras" and "scanner darkly" terminals for over 1000 years...
They were in Egypt and Israeli and Iraq/Iranian known as the Sumarian Empire...
Don't "egg" this guy on... Like you did "me"... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sometimes you can "turn a vicious back stabbing joke disguised as condensing platitudes or intellectual curiosity and support"... INTO A WEAPON /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
ATTENTION: RMT OF OF THE FORMER STATE OF AMERICA, NEVADE IS A FORMER STATE AND SO IS NEW JERSEY.
<KIDDING...>
You are "no longer" a U.S. Citizen...
Please return to your country of origin - Israel...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because you say your name is "Raymond Hudson" and you practice "Q'Ballah" and send "disguised code messages as physics post"...
Doesn't mean the clerk at your favorite coffee shop, Carl's Jr. or Jack-In-The-Box or In-And-Out Burger isn't "watching you closely..."
Because after you leave...
They say is that "Kevin from New Jersey?"
And the hot biker chick asian babe says? "Who..."
The mysterious guy in a "No Fear" t-shirt and cotton gym shorts and sneakers carry a kryptonic green foam core skateboard with a green surrounding rubber bumper with curly thick brown hair (Alot like JFK, Jr. - but no chest hair...) says...
"Babe! Don't you know who that is?..."
"That's "Kevin The Jap Artist" and he doesn't paint Shinto Temples or Japanese Country sides..."
And the clerk "Says you mean that "crazy [censored] phoney from the east coast who bang everyones girlfriend or wife he EVER MET!!!"
And the mysterious guy says "It could be that crazy military industrail complex guy... But I'm not sure..."
And the clerk says "Should I pee in his coffee or spit in it?..."
And the mysterious guy says "No... Spit in his pizza... You work at Domino's too? Right with Enrico?..."
And the clerk says "Yeah... How do you know that..."
And the mysterious guy says "It's a trade secret... I'm kidding... I can just sense things..."
And the clerk says "Ut-Oh... That's a green kryptonic skateboard!!!"
And the mysterious guy says "Ssshh... No one knows I'm in CALIFORNIA RIGHT NOW"...
And the cleark says "I'm cool Dude... I won't tell him 'you know who' is on his tail..."
And the mysterous guy says "That's right... Would you believe I'm Jonathan Hemlock?..."
And the clerk says "Right... I'm EVIL SECRET AGENT BABE - AGENT 69... <WINK>"
And the mysterious guy "AGENT 69?... So when do you get off work?..."
And the hot biker babe asian chick says "5 Minutes... Don't leave... My bike is the behind the store... So what's Wall Street like?.... Is it 'cool' like the Upper West Side or The Village..."
And the mysterious guys says "I can only tell you indoors..."
And the hot biker babe asian chick says "Exactly."
RMT... Just having fun with you...
TheCigMan
Don't you know its a "silver based" photographic plate?....
The first form of photograph in the United States.
Because Europeans had "digital cameras" and "scanner darkly" terminals for over 1000 years...
They were in Egypt and Israeli and Iraq/Iranian known as the Sumarian Empire...
Don't "egg" this guy on... Like you did "me"... /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sometimes you can "turn a vicious back stabbing joke disguised as condensing platitudes or intellectual curiosity and support"... INTO A WEAPON /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
ATTENTION: RMT OF OF THE FORMER STATE OF AMERICA, NEVADE IS A FORMER STATE AND SO IS NEW JERSEY.
<KIDDING...>
You are "no longer" a U.S. Citizen...
Please return to your country of origin - Israel...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because you say your name is "Raymond Hudson" and you practice "Q'Ballah" and send "disguised code messages as physics post"...
Doesn't mean the clerk at your favorite coffee shop, Carl's Jr. or Jack-In-The-Box or In-And-Out Burger isn't "watching you closely..."
Because after you leave...
They say is that "Kevin from New Jersey?"
And the hot biker chick asian babe says? "Who..."
The mysterious guy in a "No Fear" t-shirt and cotton gym shorts and sneakers carry a kryptonic green foam core skateboard with a green surrounding rubber bumper with curly thick brown hair (Alot like JFK, Jr. - but no chest hair...) says...
"Babe! Don't you know who that is?..."
"That's "Kevin The Jap Artist" and he doesn't paint Shinto Temples or Japanese Country sides..."
And the clerk "Says you mean that "crazy [censored] phoney from the east coast who bang everyones girlfriend or wife he EVER MET!!!"
And the mysterious guy says "It could be that crazy military industrail complex guy... But I'm not sure..."
And the clerk says "Should I pee in his coffee or spit in it?..."
And the mysterious guy says "No... Spit in his pizza... You work at Domino's too? Right with Enrico?..."
And the clerk says "Yeah... How do you know that..."
And the mysterious guy says "It's a trade secret... I'm kidding... I can just sense things..."
And the clerk says "Ut-Oh... That's a green kryptonic skateboard!!!"
And the mysterious guy says "Ssshh... No one knows I'm in CALIFORNIA RIGHT NOW"...
And the cleark says "I'm cool Dude... I won't tell him 'you know who' is on his tail..."
And the mysterous guy says "That's right... Would you believe I'm Jonathan Hemlock?..."
And the clerk says "Right... I'm EVIL SECRET AGENT BABE - AGENT 69... <WINK>"
And the mysterious guy "AGENT 69?... So when do you get off work?..."
And the hot biker babe asian chick says "5 Minutes... Don't leave... My bike is the behind the store... So what's Wall Street like?.... Is it 'cool' like the Upper West Side or The Village..."
And the mysterious guys says "I can only tell you indoors..."
And the hot biker babe asian chick says "Exactly."
RMT... Just having fun with you...
TheCigMan
Eddy_P
Temporal Novice
RE: Not the Sun
RE: KerrTexas
Actually, that symbol is well known - because past scholars have deemed it to represent the Sun, and we have been taught it represents the Sun. It fitted in with the religious perceptions of those earlier days.
But just because a group of people in the past deemed something, doesn’t make them correct, and just because it appears in scholastic books, doesn’t make it correct either.
Something is only ‘true’ or ‘correct’ until it is shown to be false or incorrect by more substantial evidence.
Here is an example where that symbol is not the Sun
RE: KerrTexas
RE: “That particular symbol is well known as to what it meansâ€
Actually, that symbol is well known - because past scholars have deemed it to represent the Sun, and we have been taught it represents the Sun. It fitted in with the religious perceptions of those earlier days.
But just because a group of people in the past deemed something, doesn’t make them correct, and just because it appears in scholastic books, doesn’t make it correct either.
Something is only ‘true’ or ‘correct’ until it is shown to be false or incorrect by more substantial evidence.
Here is an example where that symbol is not the Sun
And it is the passive aggressive BS like that, that is draging this site down. Let your yes be yes and your no be no and let go of these veiled threats of what you may or may not do depending on who you may or may not consult. The passive aggressive attitude is trite.
Not that I take sides on the issue of the post but merely offense at your less than subtlety veiled threats. Do something or let it ride Cabala man.
While a computer brought back to ancient times might seem "magical", I believe that no matter how advanced they were (advanced meaning probably more "hip" to things than we give them credit for)-they would no doubt recoil in fear after their awe struck response because human nature mocks what it doesn't understand. And sometimes, it seeks to destroy that which is doesn't understand. Suffice to say, I would be afraid to bring something like a computer, cell phone etc back to times, where people still thought the earth flat. They burned people on stakes for much less "magic" and that wasn't all that long ago in the whole scheme of things. So, I believe that I would be taken as a prisoner, tortured to explain the computer, treated as a Goddess or alien and worshipped by some, but ultimately destroyed by those that would believe I was the devil herself coming back with this thing.
That is why, people don't time travel. At least, don't make it known if they do, imo.
That is why, people don't time travel. At least, don't make it known if they do, imo.
RainmanTime
Super Moderator
And we should all note that in the recent months you have had nothing but negative things to say, and this stands as your latest negative offering.
The fact that YOU read my post as a threat (implied or otherwise) means nothing, since you are not the original poster. In fact, this thread has nothing to do with you. Now, Mr. Pengelly on the other hand, is a different story. I have heard nothing from Mr. Pengelly where he indicated I was being "passive aggressive" nor threatening him or his thread in any way. Inasmuch as I just received a very polite PM from Mr. Pengelly, I would say we have initiated a very cordial interaction. Do you wish to butt-in and personally tarnish something that does not concern you?
In response to this I would like to point out that, in general, it is NOT considered a "good thing" for people to jump to conclusions. In fact, contemplation, thoughtfulness, and reaching out to get other opinions is typically viewed as a stable, progressive approach to anything. If there is no pressing need to make a decision, why should anyone rush into one?
Your opinion is duly noted. But I don't take orders from you, and in my personal opinion your opinion does not register high on any actions I may take as MOD.
Regards,
RMT
recall15
Dimensional Traveler
is a question of hidden agenda...alas Pro7 Disclosure...
meanwhile
in reference to the cd rom and pc...
what you may find in these drawings are the electric power plant....
lol
--
Best Regards
in a town near you: $4 a gallon /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif
is a matter of time...
meanwhile
in reference to the cd rom and pc...
what you may find in these drawings are the electric power plant....
lol
--
Best Regards
in a town near you: $4 a gallon /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif
is a matter of time...
KerrTexas
Super Moderator
RE: Not the Sun
Eddy,
In looking around the web at other forums where you have posted...there is nothing I could possibly say that hasn't already been said to you over your techniques regarding the meaning of the hieroglyphs.
To continue a discussion in this forum, would end up being a carbon copy of what already exists elsewhere, and thus is a waste of time and space, here.
Eddy,
In looking around the web at other forums where you have posted...there is nothing I could possibly say that hasn't already been said to you over your techniques regarding the meaning of the hieroglyphs.
To continue a discussion in this forum, would end up being a carbon copy of what already exists elsewhere, and thus is a waste of time and space, here.
Darby
Epochal Historian
RE: Not the Sun
KT,
Well put. But I don't think that it will dissuade Pegg/Pengelly from posting. His object isn't so much as to engage in social discourse and an exchange of ideas on a public forum as it is to sell books, tapes and memberships to get into the "back room" on his website. He does a spam tour approx once every 6-8 months.
KT,
Well put. But I don't think that it will dissuade Pegg/Pengelly from posting. His object isn't so much as to engage in social discourse and an exchange of ideas on a public forum as it is to sell books, tapes and memberships to get into the "back room" on his website. He does a spam tour approx once every 6-8 months.