Logical issues with the John Titor story

Zeno

Temporal Novice
Having spent a reasonable amount of time studying the John Titor story, which I am convinced is a hoax, I have noticed a few issues that don't seem to get much coverage.


Worldline divergence: Or, covering your behind

No matter what happens over the next few years, it can be bent to fit Titor's story by worldline divergence or by other means supported by his story. Examine the following four points:

1, The author made several specific references to future events (eg 2004 would be the last Olympics, the US of 2008 would be very obviously in civil war, and there would be a short WWIII in 2015).

2, The author stated that there was around a 2% divergence in our worldline from his.

3, He also hinted his presence and actions 'may' have altered it further.

4, Finally, just to cover his behind extra strong, he hinted at some points that he 'may' have done something (either wittingly or unwittingly) which 'may' have totally changed our worldline. Additionally, he said that although it would be unlikely, it is a possibility that we could change our future and avoid, for example, the war.



All 4 of these points are a part of of his story. Each can be referred to as an explanation for various future outcomes. Let's correlate 4 possible outcomes of the predicted events with each of these 4 explanations.

Type 1: Events which directly correlate with what the author said. For example, the 2008 Olympics get cancelled, and there is obvious civil war in 2008. (Conclusion: The author was correct)

Type 2: Events occur slightly different from what the author said. (Conclusion: The author was correct but the 2% worldline divergence between his worldine and ours accounts for the slight differences)

Type 3: Events occur significantly different from what the author said. (Conclusion: The author was correct originally, but his visitation to our worldine and his actions here, on top of the 2% divergence, causes things to be significantly different)

Type 4: Events do not occur at all as the author said. (Conclusion: Either the author really did do something that drastically changed our future while he was here (well done John!), or through our actions, maybe even our sheer determination, we managed to change our future for the better (well done guys!))

Examine these four types of possible outcomes carefully. All 4 of them are explainable by John Titor's writings. Is there a problem here?

I believe so.

Every possible outcome of his predicted events is explainable by one of these 4! What does this mean? It means that no matter what happens, his story is, essentially, unrefutable.

If things happen exactly as he said, one can assert he was a genuine time traveller. If things happen slightly different, one can still assert he was a genuine time traveller. If things happen significantly different, one can still assert he was a genuine time traveller. If things do not happen at all like he said - suprise - one can still assert he was a genuine time traveller! (and praise either him for secretly taking action to 'save' us, or praise us for taking action to 'save' ourselves to boot).

No matter what happens, he can never be said to be wrong. His story is constructed in such a way that it essentially contains an explanation for any possible outcome. The hoaxer I feel was clever in this regard, and skilled at ensuring this was subtle.


Let's imagine a little scenario. I tell you I can read minds. You decide to test me out by thinking of a day of the week, and asking me to read it. I sit for a moment in a look of concentration. After a few moments, I tell you the following:

"I have a strong feeling it is Sunday, very very strong. It also may me Monday too, or Tuesday. However, there is also the possibility you are thinking of Wednesday, and additionally perhaps Thursday would make sense. Oh, there is also the chance it could be Friday because in addition to my ESP, there is fairie energy also calling to me about that particular day. Finally, I may be making all 6 of those explanations up to trick you, because I secretly know that you are REALLY thinking of Saturday. I really might! Or might not. You'll just have to wait and find out." I wink at you.

No matter what day you were thinking of, you can never really say I got it wrong.


Take a look at your horoscope for today in a magazine or a website. If the writer was skilled, they would have ensured that their prediction is worded in such a way that it cannot be pronounced wrong or incorrect. I remember recently seeing: "You may have success with money matters today." Notice the key word is 'may', not 'will'. By the end of the day, it was obvious I had not had success with money matters. But the horoscope didn't tell me I 'would', only that I 'may'. Hence, the horoscope technically is not incorrect - and never can be.



Future Technology: Or, circular reasoning

"But your time machine/time travel cannot possibly work! Here is the mathematical proof that the way you described it doesn't hold water."
Reply: "Only under your physics does it not make sense. Our physics in the future has advanced further and we discovered that things actually work different from what we previously thought."

Many people argue that this helps reinforce John's story. First, I am going to examine (only) the nature of these arguments, and show that it is not possible to argue this way without using circular reasoning.


Proposition 1: John is really a time traveller.
Proposition 2: Physics takes this particular direction in the future


The proposition that John is a time traveller relies on physics taking this particular direction in the future.
But, the proposition that physics takes this particular direction in the future relies on John's account of it, but John's account of future physics is only accurate if he really is a time traveller. Hence, the proposition that physics takes this particular direction in the future relies on John really being a time traveller.

Hence...
Proving the truth of Proposition 1 requires Proposition 2 to be true. But proving the truth of Proposition 2 requires Proposition 1 to be true.

As a result of this, it is not possible to construct an argument proving either one or the other without using circular reasoning, also known as 'begging the question'.

This does not mean I am saying it is impossible for them to both be true. I am only saying it is impossible to construct arguments which try to logically prove that either: John Titor is a genuine time traveller, or that physics takes a particular new direction in the future. You can believe them if you like, but you would have to take it on faith rather than logical argument. As logical argument cannot prove either of those propositions without committing a fallacy. I know this sounds obvious, but it's suprising how many people don't notice that problem...

There is much more that can be said about these two things, but no time now. Suffice to say, I think the author of the John Titor story was very careful to both subtly make many references which ensure that his predictions cannot technically be 'wrong' regardless of what happens. Additionally that he was careful to write a story which, upon first read, seems to be believable by being seemingly rational and well-supported, but which really can only be believed through faith, despite being in this guise.

On both counts, the story and the way in which it gains believers bears many similarities to various "New Age" religions.
 
Welcome Zeno.

I am convinced you have the whole logical story well laid out.

There is really little left to say. Titor's story is unfalsifiable, and one need say no more.

RMT
 
Thanks.
It was actually the Wikipedia article that prompted me to write this. I took a look at it today and noticed that in the very first sentence it says Titor's predictions/claims are 'seemingly falsifiable'. My first thought was "What? Since when? :eek:". All of his 'seemingly falsifiable' claims have some other claim covering their back in the event that they do not materialize.
Some of these might 'seem' falsifiable, only if you quote them out of context and ignore everything else. The story as a whole is unfalsifiable.
 
The story as a whole is unfalsifiable.
Yes. This is the way that I evaluate the binary relation of this story.

Any story that is unfalsifiable is, by definition, not scientific and therefore not worthy of being addressed with respect to its truth.

This is an important point of logic that is fundamental and cannot be thwarted, even by Titor! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
RMT
 
Zeno,

It means that no matter what happens, his story is, essentially, unrefutable.

Actually, his time travel story is easily refutable on the matter of the physics as he presented it.

He based his physics on general relativity and quantum mechanics. He then proceeded to pose a physics scenario that violates both of those well founded theories.

For his theory of time travel to be true, then both general relativity and quantum mechanics have to be totally invalid. Thus the basis for his thesis is also invalid - GTR and QM.

Recall that he said that the physics behind his gadget had all been discovered by the 1970's. That gives us a basis for comparing his gadget to what is known today (or in 2000-2001).

We know, therefore, that a black hole with a mass of less than 100 kg simply will never allow a Chevy truck to enter a Kerr class ring singularity. But he was specific - he classified the physics as involving a Kerr BH solution. And remember this: if I put a 200 kg ball of lead 1 m away from me and then crush the ball into a black hole it will have no more effect on me, 1 meter away, than it had before the BH was created. It is only when I approach the BH and get closer than the original uncollapsed surface that I will feel any new effects. (But the Hawking radiation will make a huge difference at 1 meter). In Titor's story his mini-BH's were placed on the passenger's seat of his truck (or his Corvette - depending on where you pick up the story) - about a meter away.

He mis-stated the reason why there would be no Hawking radiation involved with his BH's and that it can be controlled.

And he mislabeled his "spins" in his very first post. Particles are either "spin up" or "spin down". He labeled them as "top spin" and "bottom spin" thus mixing up quark flavors, Top Quark and Bottom Quark, with "spin" vectors.

I won't, in a single post, recount over 5 years of physics posts. However, the physics as he stated it was simply wrong.

So, even should he get some of the remaining predictions correct (most of them have come and gone all unfulfilled) you can't conclude that he was a time traveler. You might have to refer to some New Age metaphysical "majic" but time travel is out.

Here's the bottom line on his black hole solutions:

We know, for a fact, that the black hole solutions that he relied upon are incomplete and in the real world probaly will not allow time travel. They are idealized solutions to black hole mechanics that place the black hole in a universe where only two things exist - the black hole and a massless "something" that enters the ring singularity (assuming that the BH solution involved a Kerr class hole). When any mass is included other than those two items then the solution "blows up".


BTW: We know the maximum and minimum mass for each of his black holes (he said there were two inside his black box). He said that the entire box weighed about 500 lbs (~225 kg). If we figure that all of the components and the box only weigh in at 25 kg, then each BH weighs in at 100 kg.

The event horizon for a body with one Earth mass would be ~9mm. The diameter of a BH with a mass of 100 kg would be on the order of the classical diameter of a sub-atomic particle. You can't fit a Chevy through an electron - no matter how much you spin it up. You can't even break the Chevy into individual sub-atomic particles and fit the individual particles through the ring singularity - not now and not in the future. Not ever. Nature simply isn't of a mind to change to fit Titor's Physics no matter what we discover in the future.

And you do not want to be anywhere near a 100 kg black hole. It will only exist for a very short period of time and it will be hot - millions of degrees hot. The Hawking radiation involved matter/anti-matter annihilations of what would
have been virtual particles had it not been for the black hole. But the enormous curvature of spacetime just outside the event horizon energizes the virtual particles to become real. And they are always created in particle/anti-particle pairs. The entire 100 kg mass will "evaporate" in short order - but this evaporation will be more like many thousands of hydrogen bombs exploding than a glass of water wafting away in the breeze. 100 kg of mass is a whole lot of E=mc^2.

In physics scale matters. The physical scale in his story is the end of the line for his saga.

But enough on the physics.
 
Well, the point I was making was that it seems he designed his story in such a way that it is unfalsifiable regardless of how his 'predictions' turn out, which is a similar technique used by, for example, commercial 'psychics' to avoid lawsuits.

The second point I was making was that, though indeed his physics was totally wrong, unfortunately many people ignore this. Some people would read and understand the whole post you just made, and still assert Titor is genuine by arguing that 'our' physics must be wrong. I wanted to respond to these people by showing that the types of arguments they use, ie ("Well we are just ignorant about physics and John's physics comes from a world where they know better, so I still believe him") are fallacious and circular.

But yeah, you're right.
His physics is very wrong.
 
Rainman,

Just an aside:

Pamela has confirmed my suspicion. She contact Larry Haber for me and asked him if he is related to Dr. Carl Haber, PhD, Senior Scientist, Particle Physics, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, CA.

Affirmative. They are cousins. Dr. Haber spent time at SLAC...and is probably the "friends at Stanford-SLAC" that Titor refered to.

We now appear to have the Technical Advisor (Physics) for Group Titor identified.
 
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