Israeli Disengagement and the start of WW3

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IgnorantSentient

Chrono Cadet
I'm sure you came here expecting another rant, I'm not going to yell about the clear hypocricy or anything like that, but before I start, give me one indulgance though. How can the world (governments) blindly sit by while something like this is going on? People are getting punished for someone else's crimes. How would you feel if you had lived somewhere all your life. Had been attacked by mortar attacks for years. gotten little to no help. then asked one day to leave your homes because of what they are doing. Not for safety, but rather to reward your attackers. It's a sad day indeed.

I also how I like the fact that no major news source is putting a quote from the PA saying:
"This disengagement is proof to the world that Terrorism works"

Now my point, the PA has openly said they won't be able to controll these areas and that they will most probably be run purely by terrorists. the PA also said they won't do anything to stop them. The US will not allow Israel to hunt down these terrorists... I believe this will escalate to the point where Israel lets loose and wages war. By then the US will be in Iran and Syria simultaneously, because once we attack Iran, the other nations will be going "uh oh, we're next." Bush's crusade is going to go wrong. The world will try to help, but by then there will be a mounting opposition. They will try to draft some resoloution saying that it would be against world law to be in Iran, Syria, or wherever. They will try to stop the forces there, which will be percieved as a threat. Things will calm down, but there will be resentment. The US will condemn yet back Israel in it's war, and then stuff will really hit the fan. There will be widespread terrorism across the globe at that point, where some countries will say that its the fault of those going into the middle east, while those there will say they're stopping terrorism. To be vague about the next part, push comes to shove, accidents happen and we wake up one day to find ourself in WWIII.

Tommorow, a year, ten years from now? I have no idea, but that's how its going down. Don't hold me to it exactly, but that's the framework. Don't believe me now, I don't want you to, but it'll happen anyway.
 
Hi IS,
Now I tend to take the side of Israel in this dispute, simply because the PA has been lead by one of the biggest terrorists in history for so many years... thank God he is gone. However, when you write the following:
How would you feel if you had lived somewhere all your life. Had been attacked by mortar attacks for years. gotten little to no help. then asked one day to leave your homes because of what they are doing. Not for safety, but rather to reward your attackers. It's a sad day indeed.
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I would like for you to review the history of the creation of the modern state of Israel, and ask yourself these exact same questions, except from the point of view of someone who was displaced from their home by Israel.

And to demonstrate that I am not being anti-Semitic (a word that I find gets used too often), let me even review the history of Europeans and what we did to the Native Americans in this country. You could pose the same questions you have above from the point of view of a Native American.

I think one part of the healing, and road towards peace between Israelis and Palestinians must be that EACH side recognizes what they have done to the other, as well as what the other side has done to them. Call it a national reflection, or to use a Catholic word: Confession.

No offense intended... just something to think about... from a different Point Of View.
RMT
 
I have thought about that many times, but unfortunately history is often misrepresented.

First off, Israel gave back land it won after being attacked. The 7 day war was an act of agression that was meant to wipe Israel off the map, I couldn't see anything other than the hand of god allowing them there to be there today, that and the unimaginable amount of knowing what they are actually fighting for. You look at Iraq, people will give you all different answers, during the 7 day war people in Israel would have just stared you down and said 'Israel.'

Now about arabs being dispelled, lets go back to before 48. It's not hidden that the Palestineans claim all of Israel as their home. Including the most successful of places such as Tel Aviv where todays cell phone technology comes from. History lesson 1: Tel aviv was founded shortly after 1900 (1909 I think) and was a jewish settlement, no one was displaced, it was just a town... and the palestineans claim rights to it how?

Before '48 the majority of the Israel was desolate, it was hard to grow things in most places so there werent many people there. The jewish settlers that came in bought land off fof rich arab landowners at inflated prices for dirt and rock. yes, a lot of the land was BOUGHT. That which wasn't bought was usually deserted, and as I can't say for certain that no one was kicked out of their homes I seriously doubt anyone was. Now, these farms actually brought in arab workers from the surrounding nations and handsomly paid at that. It was good work and they came. Now! They had gotten their indipendance and had a lot of problems to deal with (http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html) that's a good site to explain what happened after. And I do reccomend the book "a complete idiots guide to the middle east conflict" advertised at the bottom, as even some brilliant people are complete idiots when it comes to the subject. After the '67 war is when the real problem starts, to which I should first say that when you start a war, you should be prepared to accept losses. They're the only people who ever complained about what happened after they lost a war they started, which I just feel is ridiculous. Now, many people were told by the arab armies to leave their homes and come back after massacres so that they wouldn't be harmed, only to find when they came back that the jews had taken over their homes. Though that was barely 4% of the people now known as palestineans. The majority are those who warriors stuck over the jordan after the war, their respective countries wouldn't let them back in. thus they were forced to stay in refugee camps, as were I should also point out the jews around '48, and look at the jews there now. Those who lost their land by just getting kicked out of their homes are a little more than those who left of their own accord. though like I said before, it was a war! what do you expect? Still the majority of the people placed in refugee camps were soldiers, those who formerly worked for the jewish farmers, and (though minority) sadly to say those who were just caught up in it.

If you go to the north in Israel you'd find some of the nicest arabs in the world, happy to be living there, as they have been for years. Palestineans are the 'displaced people' israeli arabs are those who live there as lawful citizens. there's a difference. but as i'm now getting off topic, and I think I made my point, I shall end here.

The majority of people weren't kicked out of their homes, it's a myth. read up on it. what's happening now is just a tragety.
 
I believe this will escalate to the point where Israel lets loose and wages war. By then the US will be in Iran and Syria simultaneously, because once we attack Iran, the other nations will be going "uh oh, we're next." Bush's crusade is going to go wrong. The world will try to help, but by then there will be a mounting opposition. They will try to draft some resoloution saying that it would be against world law to be in Iran, Syria, or wherever. They will try to stop the forces there, which will be percieved as a threat. Things will calm down, but there will be resentment. The US will condemn yet back Israel in it's war, and then stuff will really hit the fan. There will be widespread terrorism across the globe at that point, where some countries will say that its the fault of those going into the middle east, while those there will say they're stopping terrorism. To be vague about the next part, push comes to shove, accidents happen and we wake up one day to find ourself in WWIII.

Tommorow, a year, ten years from now? I have no idea, but that's how its going down. Don't hold me to it exactly, but that's the framework. Don't believe me now, I don't want you to, but it'll happen anyway.
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All I'll say, is that it's by no means impossible.
 
/ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

We'll see, with benjamin Netanyahu as the next Israeli PM I wouldn't put anything past the world.

He's a genious politician, he leaves the finance ministry while the disengagement shadows the government, but actually leaves because the finance ministry is in a bit of a fix. Thus making it seem like he's leaving because of the disengagment, which is a genious political move. He also went on CNN saying that if it were up to him, he'd go in and wipe out all the terrorists, which in Israeli terms mean, go in and gut the place.

You never know what can happen.
 
I.S /i completly agree ,this is part of the fame work for ww3. Going right along with the plans with the NWO .I /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif belive it woud be part two of thire plan. where palestins will make a fully independent state from Israel,there should be some world leader that will say somethig about a 7 year peace deal soon.than with in a couple months of that, israel will attack palestine. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif
 
Well, I think that the next president of the US will stay the war for a while. This president ran in blindly with fists swinging. We still have not really composed ourselves. The next president will stabilize the country, do more about things close to home, and Iraq will be more of a memory. Just like Vietnam.

This won't stop the things I said from happening.
 
There is an interesting site that you may or may not be aware of. http://www.threeworldwars.com/blog/

It is apparent that the stage is set!
The actors are in place.
September the 11th is about to have a sequel.
This will be the one of the needed requirements before WWIII really starts.

Get yaw popcorn ready folks, the show is about to start.

/ttiforum/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ttiforum/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Hey IS,

I wasn't going to respond to your reply, as I can tell you are quite opinionated about this situation. But after reading some of the material at the website posted by nitescott, I figured it was time for me to reply to your post. Did you read some of the articles at that website? It is interesting because there are two specific articles that speak from two different postions about the disengagement. One of them (Disengagement is One Big Lie) supports your view. And I am aware that you are Jewish, and also aware that you have deep cultural, and probably family, ties to Israel. Another of the articles (The Gazan Fiasco) supports a position opposite to yours, and it does raise some good points.

I say without malice towards you, my friend, that it is apparant that you have a natural bias towards this situation because of who you are and the culture you grew up in. And after reading quite a bit on the masada2000 website you provided, I must say that there looks to be quite a bit of militant propaganda on that site, would you not agree? Is it possible that the site is also biased towards the Israeli view?

As I mentioned in my first reply to you, I tend to side with the Israeli view. However, being an American whose only ties to Israel are that they are one of our allies, I feel I have an ability to look at the situation a bit more evenly, and from a somewhat detached point of view. And that was really what I was imploring you to do... to try to look at the larger situation from that of a Palestinian man or woman of your age. Now, I would like to ask you an earnest question, and I really would like your honest answer and heartfelt thoughts on it. Will you do that for me, so I can help understand your thought process? Please answer this question:

Are you telling us, in your response to my reply, that no Palestinians (or whatever you want to call these people) have EVER been wronged, or harmed, or displaced by the state of Israel?

Yes, the leader of the Palestinians for so long WAS one of the world's biggest terrorist scum. Yes, he and his militant organizations did kill innocent Israelis. Of that there is no doubt. But do you honestly think that ALL of those people, some of which have been treated quite poorly by Israel, are ALL terrorists bent on the destruction of Israel? Or do you think it is possible that there are good, kind, peaceful people in that society, who just happen to have been under the rule of selfish, violent people lead by Arafat?

In summary, I do not for a minute think Israel is not complicit, nor that they have never done anything to hurt innocent people. Yes, they took some actions which I would classify as a response to terror that could be called self-defense. But certainly there were actions taken that killed innocent people, that robbed people who may have not been part of terrorist activities from their homes. I am asking you to look critically at some of the potentially biased information that you are being fed (and that no doubt the Palestinians are being fed by their government and supporters). I am asking you, as a young person, to step back, understand that there is fault on BOTH sides, and see if you can figure out a way to move forward... a way where people on BOTH sides can admit their faults, as well as decry the atrocities brought down upon them, and move on to something better.

Kind Regards,
RMT
 
Ray, I entirely see your point and I didn't write anything to start anything other than a civil argument at most.
Of course over the years Israeli's have done things that are not in the best intrests of the palestineans, I don't think I commented on that in my last posts, just where they came from. The fence has greatly stemmed the flow of possibility of suicide bombing in Israel, but at the same time they severly limit plenty of innocent people. Not all palestineans are evil, though in all honesty, I was scared plenty while I was there less than a year ago traveling via taxi through the west bank. They hate americans just as much as they hate jews, being both, I didn't like my chances much as I'm sure you'd understand. The palestinean government has been using its people as political tools (also by all the surrounding nations) but since early 90s Israel has enderstandably gotten fed up with them. The Israeli government is always looking to protect its own people in any way.

I often speak of friends in arab villages near Acco, now, the Israeli government wanted to put up walls and checkpoints around all these cities, for no real reason, the Israeli supreme court called this proposition "Racist" and a "severe lack of judgment" on the part of those who thought it up. So the government might be anti arab, though considering their past, I would let an occasional thing go by. They don't usually get passed, as was shown by this case.

I would say the biggest problem are the soldiers, not the politicians. You might not hear it that often, but I'm gonna tell you here, Jewish people can be extremely spiteful. You might have figured that out with the "you blow us up we knock your house down and arrest your family" stance on suicide bombers. At Jaffa Gate to the old city in Jerusalem the Mezuzah (look up what it is, too tired to explain) on the gate's side is a hollowed out explosive from a failed suicide bombing. They put that there to say that you failed, and are shoving it people's faces more than it is about enjoying life. I could be wrong, it's probably more along 50/50 lines. But plenty of people who join the army, expecially from the good 'ol US of A, join simply to get a piece of the action and get at the palestineans for revenge they feel they deserve. I personally know people who have both been injured and sadly killed in suicide bombings It gets you pretty angry thinking about it. On top of that, in East Jerusalem you have parents giving kids very realistic metal cap guns (that I found you could just about buy anywhere for about 25 shekel which is about $6) probably with the hope that they'll be shot at, which would make an amazing story for the next days news. Over on some of the more dangerous roads you have people throwing rocks at you, and the news makes it seem like nothing, but when a rock the size of your head is thrown at a car, you die, end of story. There are bullet proof busses to get to certain places, and they are COVERED with bullet marks. Terrorist cells are busted all along the west bank and Gaza weekly. Hatred is taught in the schools and in their media. And if that doesn't make you angry, and want to do something about it, then I don't know what to say. These people use children as bait and as cover. I am of course talking about the terrorists, there are people who are not affiliated of any kind who are unfortunately hurt because of this. I am not making excuses, its wrong, but from what I have seen there are more people who do wrong in at least some way than those who do right. About 10 months ago they released a VCD of the beheadings in Iraq for about 5 shekel, roughly $1.25 ... This VCD became the top selling movie in the west bank within hours.

I can go on and on about what people over there have done, I'm not saying everyone, but people over there. I really havn't heard anything from the news about anything positive that people have done there. I would expect something nice would be hailed by the media, but I have yet to see it. The Israeli government is looking to save its own people, and they are pissed at the palestineans so they don't care how they do it, neither are most Israeli's being as how at one time or another they've all been in the army and had to deal with them. Yes, it's sad, but let me tell you that the second the palestineans stop, so will the Israelis, as the have said and held true to in the past.

I should also note, that while this disengagement is happily going onward and as I'm watching CNN at 6 in the morning I noticed Eilat was shot at with a mortar, it didn't explode (thanks god) but it hit right near the airport. This disengagement isn't going to help anything, it will only bring their mortars closer to other cities. I know there the mortar hit (thanks to a bilboard shown on CNN) I stood there after hiking to Eilat from Ramon Crater and camping out. I stood on that spot 9 months ago. that exact spot. If that attack had happened 9 months earlier I wouldn't be here today and you know what, I'm pretty pissed about that, because it could have been me, it could have been you and it could have been someone you loved. Think about it.
 
Re: Israeli Disengagement and the start of WW3 ???

More with Titor... which is also accepted discussion here.
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That connection is tenuous at best. The thread has defintiely moved away from any relevant discussion on Titor and gone political.

Just curious.
 
Re: Israeli Disengagement and the start of WW3 ???

Most if what Titor did was political guesswork, and its discussed all the time.

If you'd like me to put "I AM FROM THE FUTURE, BOW BEFORE ME" at the end of my original post I'll do that and then you shouldn't have a problem. Though, at least for now, I won't g othat low.
 
Re: Israeli Disengagement and the start of WW3 ???

Most if what Titor did was political guesswork, and its discussed all the time.
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I think we can agree on the quesswork and discussion ad nauseum.

If you'd like me to put "I AM FROM THE FUTURE, BOW BEFORE ME" at the end of my original post I'll do that and then you shouldn't have a problem. Though, at least for now, I won't g othat low.
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Not sure what that has to do with my question, but that is not near what I asked. I simply asked what leaving the occupied areas had to do with time travel. Connecting them to Titor's ramblings about a WW3 seems a stretch. And the fact that other than the topic, the conversation has settled on the right vs.wrong of the pullout.
 
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