how would this work then

[dudemcdude]

I've got a question about time travel.

Ok so its present day, and I have decided to build a time machine for the sole purpose of travelling back in time to early 1938 before the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia and assassinate Hitler.

So I do just that, I build my time machine and I mingle myself into the crowd during a Nazi parade, as his car drives past I manage to lob a grenade into Hitler's Benz, killing Hitler and a few of his henchmen (lets say Hermann Göring, Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler), but I also get cut down in the process by the SS surrounding me.

The Nazi party claims it was a cowardly communist that carried out the attack. Perhaps then there's a struggle for leadership and skirmishes break out between the SA and the SS then the Nazi party falls apart, and maybe the Weimar Republic returns to fill the power vacuum, so world war two never takes place.

So its now present day, in the history books World War One is simply known as The Great War and Europe was a relatively peaceful place in the 1940s (except for Germany) and still is.

I have no desire to build a time machine and travel back in time to be the unknown gunman the history books tell me killed Adolf Hitler. As far as I'm concerned, that task was carried out by a nameless communist and no image of the man exists.

So if I don't build a time machine, how would I have existed in 1938 to kill Hitler in the first place? How could the new time line even be possible?

 

[wolf]

Ok so its present day, and I have decided to build a time machine for the sole purpose of travelling back in time to early 1938 before the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia and assassinate Hitler.

If your goal is to go around killing nobodies (every leader is a nobody before rising to power) then you should not be seeking time travel.

On the other hand, this is just a restatement of the "grandfather paradox".

Paradoxes only happen in the illusion of linear time, which only exists in one's mind. In reality, time is nonlinear and not a dimension (though very real).

 

[KerrTexas]

What about the Japanese ?

Even by taking out Hitler, and some of his henchmen, may have just opened the door for someone else to accomplish the same thing, if not worse. Remember, Hitler was his own worst enemy in many ways.

Perhaps, under the reign of someone else, such as Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel, things might have turned out a bit different.

 

[Darby]

So its now present day, in the history books World War One is simply known as The Great War and Europe was a relatively peaceful place in the 1940s (except for Germany) and still is

And what about the USSR's designs on Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, Hungry, Germany, Japan et al? The UK and the Commonwealth are still at war in the Pacific as are China, Holland and France. Italy is still at war in North Aftica and the Middle East. Europe is at war abroad with little certainty that they won't be at war on the Continent with Russia by the spring of 1942 when the US enters the war in the Pacific and can't commit to Plan Reforger (Reinforce Europe in case of a Soviet attack - a wargame played every spring in Europe by NATO during the Cold War). This war might pre-empt the Korean War because it would likely last through 1949.

I think that if you kill Hitler they add another stanza to Horst Wessel Lied and find another Fuhrer. God forbid that their replacement is equally homicidal but isn't a raving lunatic who makes the Adolph Hitler-Lyndon Johnson mistake of trying to run a war from the capitol by personally micro-managing every bullet and bomb instead of letting the generals manage the detais from the field. Hitler, thankfully, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with his "management style".

 

[dudemcdude]

Some really interesting replies, enjoyed reading them thanks! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If your goal is to go around killing nobodies (every leader is a nobody before rising to power) then you should not be seeking time travel.

Hitler wasn't exactly a nobody in 1938, he had risen to power, but I can see your point.

On the other hand, this is just a restatement of the "grandfather paradox".

Paradoxes only happen in the illusion of linear time, which only exists in one's mind. In reality, time is nonlinear and not a dimension (though very real).

Ah so its called the grandfather paradox, your last paragraph has really got me thinking, but I still don't fully understand it. So is it impossible to noticeably change time, as in the changed time line that particular event has always taken place? Please explain it some more, I still cant comprehend it.

What about the Japanese ?

The Japanese had two choices to get the natural resources they needed, they could either get it via trade and diplomacy or by military conquest. In the 30s they choice military conquest and seized Formosa, Korea, Manchuria and later in the 30s undertook a large scale invasion of China proper.

In 1938 Japan battled with the Russians on the soviet/Manchuria border, it only lasted two weeks as Russia was far too strong and Japan opted for a settlement. 10 months later it happened again and the Japanese were beaten again, this time by Zhukov. The Japanese weren't strong enough to undertake a full scale invasion of Russia on their own, just imagine those light weight tanks up against Russian armour.

The UK and the Commonwealth are still at war in the Pacific as are China, Holland and France.

At this time Japan was still receiving steel and oil from the USA, this only stopped in 1940 because they signed the Tripartite Pact. Assuming Germany was not at war or on the path to war, that pact wouldn't have existed and I don't think a move on the Dutch East Indies or French Indochina would take place either. Nor an invasion of Singapore or an attack on pearl harbour. Japan would effectively be taking on the western world all on her own.

Remember Japan didn't think she could defeat just the USA even with USA resources being tied up in Europe and the Atlantic thanks to the Germans, what they wanted was to be able to sue for peace on Japan's terms.

Italy is still at war in North Aftica and the Middle East

Now whilst Mussolini did have dreams of a Roman empire of his own, Italy's forces were second rate compared to Britain, as Britain proved in the western desert campaign. Mussolini only declared war on France and Britain in 1940 because a German victory looked sure.

So that takes the Axis out of the picture. All we are left with is Japan fighting China, as for what the commonwealth would do about that I don't know. What do both of you think would happen?

Of course that is all assuming, as both Darby and KerrTexas mentioned that Hitler isn't simply replaced. It's a terrifying thought of Rommel stepping in and taking charge (as would have happened had the plot he was involved in to kill Hitler later in the war had been successful). I don't think Germany would have invaded Russia, but instead ploughed her resources into U-boat production and strengthening the Luftwaffe to finish off Britain followed by either an invasion or more likely a peace treaty.

I think that if you kill Hitler they add another stanza to Horst Wessel Lied and find another Fuhrer. God forbid that their replacement is equally homicidal but isn't a raving lunatic who makes the Adolph Hitler-Lyndon Johnson mistake of trying to run a war from the capitol by personally micro-managing every bullet and bomb instead of letting the generals manage the detais from the field. Hitler, thankfully, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with his "management style".

Hehe a raving lunatic, very true. SOE actually considered an assassination attempt on Hitler, but decided he was worth more to them alive.

As for the USSR I would really like to know what you think would happen Darby. I would think they might at the least invade Finland, and since Finland wouldn't have German supplies I cant see the Red Army failing.

I guess we are off topic on time travel, more of a what if scenario, but I'm enjoying it so lets keep it going /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Darby]

dude,

As for the USSR I would really like to know what you think would happen Darby. I would think they might at the least invade Finland, and since Finland wouldn't have German supplies I cant see the Red Army failing.

We should probably think about a European conflict started by the USSR in 1939-1940 in a slightly different POV. That POV would hold that there was only one world war, not two. We just had a 20 year half time show from 1918 to 1938. WWI started in the Balkan States between ethnic German and Russian populations. Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia. There was no declaration of "peace" in 1918. It was an armistice - an argeement between the warring parties to temporarily hault hostilities. The matter of the causes of the war were never settled and Czarist Russia only withdrew in 1917 because fo the Bolshevik Revolution. War between Russia and Germany was virtually assured irrespective of what government came to power in Germany.

And of course, both countries had their eyes on Romania - the Ploesti oil fields.

I think you're correct about Finland. It's a small country and the Russians would have had a tiger by the tail. The Finns wouldn't have rolled over. In the end, however, the Russians would have overwhelmed them. But that would still leave the Russian Baltc Fleet landlocked by the Keel Straights, Germany, Poland (Gdinsk, Danzig), Denmark, Holland, Sweden and Norway. To break out the Baltic fleet into the Atlantic Russia would have had to take all of the Nordic States and those states would have good reason to believe that Russia wouldn't stop with Finland.

 

[KerrTexas]

So that takes the Axis out of the picture. All we are left with is Japan fighting China, as for what the commonwealth would do about that I don't know. What do both of you think would happen?

The ingredients for a World War were already in place during this time. There was The Russo-Japanese War for dominance over portions of Manchuria and for Korea during 1904 - 1905. Russian interests in the area clashed with the Japanese interests.

It seems the Japanese made use of surprise attacks, before Pearl Harbor, and did the same thing with a surprise attack on the Russian Eastern Fleet. The Russians sent their Baltic fleet and that was completely destroyed in the Battle of Tsushima.

In 1918, more than 70,000 Japanese troops had occupied all ports and major towns in the Russian Maritime Provinces and eastern Siberia, as part of a coalition with the American Expeditionary Force. However, when the United States pulled it's troops out of the area, the Japanese stayed.

The United States and Great Britain subjected Japan to diplomatic pressure, and because of economic cost, the Japanese forces withdrew in 1922.

Japan invaded and conquered Manchuria in 1931.

In 1933, a Chinese territory alongside Manchuria, was invaded and conquered in 1933.

Japan invaded China in 1937. This led to a three-way battle against communists and nationalists, and in the same year of 1937, the Nationalist capital was taken by Japanese Troops.

That war resulted with the Communists and Nationalists creating an alliance against the Japanese.

Thus, even if a time travler had killed Hitler as an infant, there already was elements existing for an eventual world war.

The alliances may have been different, and does present an interesting "what if" scenario. What if Japan decided not to attack the United States, and decided to attack Russia, instead ?

Remember, the Japanese had a formidable Navy at that time. They may have run into trouble against the mechanised units of Russia, however, you can see the dynamics in place for a world war, regardless of specific individuals existing or not.

If Germany was a side-liner, and didn't become active in any war, at first, and Russia herself made moves into the west, it seems to me that the Japanese would have used that as an excuse to work from the East.

How different would it be had they not been using their resources against the United States ?

Another aspect to consider :

Albert Einstein

was born in Germany. He moved to Italy, and then to Switzerland.

Wernher von Braun

Werner von Braun had been charged as a Communist sympathizer, this led to his arrest by the Gestapo.

Speer relayed that Hitler had finally conceded: "In the matter concerning B. I will guarantee you that he will be exempt from persecution as long as he is indispensable for you, in spite of the difficult general consequences this will have."

The Soviet Army was about 160 km from Peenemünde in the spring of 1945 when von Braun assembled his planning staff and asked them to decide how and to whom they should surrender. Afraid of Soviet cruelty to prisoners of war, von Braun and his staff decided to try to surrender to the Americans.

J. Robert Oppenheimer

Oppenheimer was born to parents who had immigrated to the United States from Germany in 1888. J. Robert Oppenheimer attended the University of Göttingen to study under Max Born.

Max Born

A German physicist and mathematician who was instrumental in the development of quantum mechanics. In 1933 Born emigrated from Germany. He had strong and public pacifist opinions; moreover, though Born was a Lutheran, he was classified as a "Jew" by the Nazi racial laws due to his ancestry, and was thus stripped of his professorship.


Had things gone differently, if Hitler was non-existent, what would the world be like today, if these men had been allowed to gather in Germany ( or anywhere else for that matter )and work together, un-restrained ?

No matter how we paint the picture, it still doesnt come out pretty. Anyway you look at it, the numbers of those killed would have been horrendous, and probably more so if WW-2 didn't play out exactly the way it did.

 

[KerrTexas]

To keep this in line with the Time Travel discussion, and is something I mentioned before, I believe that people have preconceived ideal's of what a time traveler would be like. This is reflected in the time travel claims that show up on this site.


I believe that any potential time traveler would be far advanced, and armed with technology that we can only imagine at this time. If we want to slip into the realm of science fiction, who is to say that a time traveler did not influence key individuals along the time-line ?

Hitler was influenced by occult activities, so who is to say that some time traveler didn't use that as a method to mess with Hilter, and render him less effective then he may have been in an alternative scenario of events.

Could we go so far as to imagine that the time traveler injected key individuals in the past with some type of bio-nano technology that affected the thought processes of those same individuals ?

There are thousands of accounts of "angels" stepping in and accomplishing all sort's of miracles, so, perhaps, we have our time travelers exposed. As a primitive culture, compared to the time travelers, we are doing exactly as any "primitive" people would do, and have done, is classify the un-explained to the spiritual realms.

As masters of time and space, who is to say what their limitations would be, and who is to say what kinds of technology would be under their command for use ?

 

[RainmanTime]

As masters of time and space, who is to say what their limitations would be, and who is to say what kinds of technology would be under their command for use ?

But one thing cannot be disputed, Kerr... and that is that any TTer would first make a beeline for an insignificant web forum on time travel, and allow people to "ask him questions" to get those people to believe him.... but then not care if they believe him!

Isn't that just obvious what they would do? :D
RMT

 

[Packerbacker]

Suppose that without the Nazis, there would have been no rightist counter to the Communist Party. The German population was getting desperate, and Communism might have seemed the only way out.

If Communism won out in Europe the Russians would have been in a position of power, and might have dominated the world.

One saving feature of Dictators is their limited lifespan. An ideology like Communism doesn't get old like Hitler would have.

So the dilemma might be(supposing there is no other choice)--do you put up with a Hitler for a while, or do you face the possibility of a Soviet world that might go on for generations?

But it points out that if time travel is possible, this society isn't wise enough to have it, yet. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/devil.gif

 

[KerrTexas]

...any TTer would first make a beeline for an insignificant web forum on time travel...

LOL !

Must be in the Time Traveler Guide and/or Manual as a "first stop" along the way.

Mess with the natives kind of thing.

All part of "the plan".

Send the...um..."challenged" time traveler's as a distraction, while the more experienced time traveler's achieve their goals.

At least that much should be obvious.

LOL !

 

[wolf]

Send the...um..."challenged" time traveler's as a distraction

My how time flies. :D

 

[Darby]

Kerr,

There was The Russo-Japanese War for dominance over portions of Manchuria and for Korea during 1904 - 1905. Russian interests in the area clashed with the Japanese interests.

That's an excellent point. The Russians were a paranoid bunch and for good reason. During the first 40 years of the 20th Century they had been attacked by two of the future Axis powers already.

How the scenario plays out in Asia without Hitler in Germany is inseresting. By 1941 China was almost finished. Similar to Russia in 1917, by 1941 China was in the middle of WWII but also had a Communist revolution taking place in country.

Chaing Kai-Shek was both fighting the Japanese invasion and fighting Mao Tse-Tung's Communist revolution in China. Mao was also fighting the Japanese. Russia and Japan had had a short 4 month war in 1939 and in 1941 had signed the neutrality pact. But if Germany had not attacked and Russia was free to roam, it's not likely that they would have let the communist revolution fail in China. Stalin's view of the neutrality pact was one of wait and prepare for the coming war as he did with the 1939 German-Russian treaty over the fate and division of Poland. Germany struck first only because Russia hadn't struck first. Timing is everything.

 

[KerrTexas]

How the scenario plays out in Asia without Hitler in Germany is interesting.

Yes, I agree. How the scenario plays out in Asia without Hitler in Germany is interesting.

Who would have done what would make for a fascinating read. IF the Japanese were capable of infiltrating China and other countries, would they eventually try and root out all Communist's regime's, including Russia ? or do you believe that the Japanese would have stopped at some point, and then make a pact to halt aggression ?

Obviously, the Japanese had a habit of not abiding by any pacts made with other nations.

Stalin "might have" have supported the revolution in China, and send resources to China, to battle the Japanese.

Would be interesting to develop a theoretical scenario of what possible actions may have taken place, along the lines of strategy and tactics.

It seems that we would have to take a look at the strengths and weaknesses of each of the possible players.

With Germany out of the picture, who would the players have been, if Japan was acting alone, with a similar agenda ?

""Hitler had become over-confident, owing to his rapid success in Western Europe, as well as the Red Army's ineptitude in the Winter War against Finland in 1939–40. He expected victory within a few months and therefore did not prepare for a war lasting into the winter. His troops therefore lacked adequate warm clothing and preparations for a longer campaign when they began their attack. The assumption that the Soviet Union would quickly capitulate would prove to be his undoing ""
- Wiki

As I am sure anyone who has studied this offensive has also read that Napoleon made similar mistakes, over-confident of winning, as reflected from what happened with Moscow in 1812.

A quote regarding Naploeon and his attempt at Russia - " self-defeating occupation of Moscow ".

This does include the idea that Stalin does respond to a Japanese offensive in China, or prepares for an eventual offensive being launched by the Japanese against him.

There seems to be a debate on the concept that the German strike was merely a pre-emptive move against Russia, and this seems to be weakened somewhat by the fact that "in the spring of 1941, Stalin's own intelligence services made regular and repeated warnings of an impending German attack. However, Stalin chose to ignore these warnings. Although acknowledging the possibility of an attack in general and making significant preparations, he decided not to run the risk of provoking Hitler. He had fielded officers who were likely indeed to tell him only what he wanted to hear, so that he believed that the position of the Soviet Union in early 1941 was much stronger than it actually was..."

Would Stalin do the same had the Japanese been building up a force along Russia's border in the east ?

Would the Japanese have made the same mistake's ?

In a way, it seems they DID make the same mistake by attacking the United States, and suffered logistical problems by pushing towards the east, instead of towards the west. Instead of a land mass, their obstacle was water.

If they pushed to the west, instead, would they be able to accomplish what no one else had been able to do against Russia ?

Would the Japanese be capable of sending their Navy through the The Mediterranean Sea, and establish dominance ? ( this is a loaded question all in itself )

Could the Japanese acquire air superiority over Russia ?

Would the United States eventually supply resources to Japan, had this scenario played out ?

Alot of questions, with alot of details required to develop an idea of this "what if".

By the way, it didn't escape my notice the mention of Finland. Russia may have moved against Finalnd if Germany was not involved : " as well as the Red Army's ineptitude in the Winter War against Finland in 1939–40 " so it seems that Russia DID make an attempt on Finland without much success.

Funny how history DOES seem to repeat. The names, dates and locations could be replaced and remain timely.

 

[RainmanTime]

Funny how history DOES seem to repeat.

Indeed, even in our own time. Get ready for a return to the Carter years of double-digit inflation and the "misery index". My prediction is these are less than 2 calendar years in our future. Probably more like 1.

RMT

 

[wolf]

Indeed, even in our own time. Get ready for a return to the Carter years of double-digit inflation and the "misery index". My prediction is these are less than 2 calendar years in our future. Probably more like 1.

"We will bury you"