How much energy would it take to time travel?

RainmanTime

RainmanTime

Super Moderator
Disclaimer: Those who know me from my posts know full well that I often explain that the concepts we typically have of "Time" as an independent dimension through which we can travel is scientifically incorrect. Rather, space-time is an integrated set of dimensions. But despite that I have devised the following analogy to help people understand just how difficult achieving time travel would be.

As both an engineer and an engineering educator, I often like to devise scientifically accurate analogies that help my students get their minds around difficult concepts. While driving home from work Thursday on Interstate 405 here in Los Angeles, I hit upon a good way to help people understand just how much energy it would take to "travel through time." (were that even possible, which of course I do not believe is so)

As we all know, traveling through space requires an expenditure of energy. And since space is really just one part of the overall dimensions of space-time, then we can also surmise (correctly) that it would also require an expenditure of energy to travel through time. So then, is there a way we can begin to estimate how much energy would be required to travel through time? The answer is yes. All it requires is two pieces of common knowledge:

1) That ALL measures of time used by mankind are a result of measuring MATTER in MOTION. For example, a sundial tells the time of day by the motion of the earth's matter about its axis with respect to the sun. All other forms of measuring the passage of time can likewise be shown to be based upon measurements of MATTER in MOTION.

2) That a simple equation for energy expenditure (i.e. Work) is a force required to move some body through a distance. Or, spelled out in equation format, the scalar equation for Energy (Work) is:

Work = Energy = Force x Distance (work done on an object is equal to the net energy gained by that object)

Now let's apply this to the desire for me to travel backwards in time. Let's say when I get home (Huntington Beach) from work (at LAX airport) I decide that I want to go BACK IN TIME only to the point where I left work. Despite LA's notorious rush hour traffic on I-405, I am only wishing to go back in time about 1.5 hours. But how much energy must be expended to make that jump to the past?

Well, I can begin to understand this by computing the work to merely move myself and my car the distance I traveled to get home from work. Since the non-payload driving weight of my 2003 Corvette is on the order of 3250 pounds, and I am just about 200 pounds, and the distance between work and home is right around 35 miles (184,800 feet), we can do this calculation:

Work = Energy = Force x distance = 3450 pounds x 184,800 feet

Work = Energy = 637,560,000 pound-feet = 240.12 Kilowatt-Hours

Is that all? Sheeeesh! That ain't all that much energy to travel through time! Hold on, pardner! That is just the energy to return myself and my car to that point in time! In order to truly achieve time travel, I am also going to have to expend enough energy to move ALL OF THOSE OTHER CARS on the I-405 (whether they were going north or south) back to the place they were located at the time I left work! Because quite literally, if I am going to travel through time, and I want to be at that moment when I left work, then ALL of those other people and their cars would have been in a different place. So multiply the energy required for just myself by all those cars on the I-405 (and some cars may be lighter and may have gone a shorter distance, but some may have been heavier and traveled a longer distance).

But it doesn't end there, does it? In order for me to actually travel back in time, then ALL of the matter that was in motion around the world during that hour and a half would also have to be moved back to its original position...because as we established, time is measured via MATTER IN MOTION. And even if we moved every single bit of matter in the world back to the place it was at the start of my time travel segment, that still is not enough, right? Because the earth and all the heavenly bodies had also moved some distance during that time, right?

Now, I suppose someone could make the (unsubstantiated) argument that all those bodies really far away do not impact time here on this planet, and that I really would not need ALL that energy equivalent to the motion of all the matter in the known universe just to travel back an hour and a half here in time on this planet. And because I am an engineer, then I might even accept that limiting simplification (as we engineers do that all the time). But because bodies in motion around the world influence events every single day, I am still going to insist that we must account for ALL of the motion of ALL bodies on the face of the planet, in order for me to achieve going back in time just 1.5 hours.

When you start to think about all the airplanes, trains, automobiles, and even just the motion of all the masses of the earth's water in motion for that 1.5 hours it took me to drive home, you start to see just what a MASSIVE expenditure of energy it would take just for one little old guy to travel back in time for just 1.5 hours.

And....the further you go back in time, the MORE motion of all that matter you have to account for, and reverse. And let's not also forget the practicality of physics which tells us there are no truly, 100% reversible processes. In other words, it always takes more energy input to reverse a process than it took for that process to naturally unfold.

So....now....do all you time travel believers really believe you can muster the kinds of energy necessary to reverse the flow of time so you can achieve your romantic notions of time travel to the past? Sorry....but time travel is a one-way street. Forward....at the pace you are moving!

:D

RMT

 
And whenever you TT kiddies get your mind wrapped around this analogy, and what it implies, I will also be ready to discuss how this analogy applies to John Titor's fictitious "dual top-spin micro black hole" TT technology. As it is patently ridiculous to even suggest when you do energy accounting.... More once you folks "ask me some questions about time travel." ;)

RMT

 
I'm having a little trouble with what your'e asking.But on the Titormoble, I think that what they're doing is energy harvesting some aspect of the energy give off ratio from the intersecting Kers. There was a saying that that there is an ample give off from the double enveloped twin black hole boundary simulations, which is a part of standard operations of this type of time traveling vehicle.

It would take a mini arc reactor like Ironman, has to power this type of machine otherwise.

Where I am at, somebody or some thing had been taking big chunks of earth weighing seven to eight hundred pounds, in cookie cutter fashion, out from the ground and setting these down like brownies, without making any tire or tread tracks what so ever.This had made the news here, so everybody all of a sudden said E.T.s and UFOs.I don't know, all I know is that this had been done two to three times and had a few ranchers very upset.

So whatever that power ratio is as a feedback to make the machine run, I guess that it's similar to the power of a small saucer?

On other methods, such as a form of self mutant creation hailing from the womb, in similar fashion to the X-Men's Jean Gray, I'm thinking twenty times the power of a large 16 volt car or truck battery, but there is again, some kind of bio-hailo take off from that natural human effect.Pinter

To help you all understand these principles a little bit better, what they are doing is taking power from the reactions of an artificially made energy wall.Just as anybody can blow a large circular bubble with a Bubble Blowing ring and bubble liquid, so observing that sphere, the fields containing energy are produced by electrical excitation as produced by intersectional heating, from how two bubbles intersected would be envisioned.

*Last example not given and since it is related to the illegal taking of large chunks of earth to impress simple farmers. We won't go into what cutting into a spherical antimatter reactor looks like and what happened when scientist from the DOE allegedly tried to accomplish this feat, while the reactor had been under load, or working, "OUCH"! Pinter

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Theory conjecture reaping power from the reaction of a fusion active core under-load.

The original premise for doing this was a section placed on the inner wall of a machine known as the Tokamack Fusion reactor. This premise of gatherance of some parameter fields, to be translated by the star cell inside of the reactor, utilized in theory a composite material similar to theory in construction to auto brake materials makeing.

This construction to where certain elements in the hardened conglomerate mixture of this large ring-like structure, would translate electrodynamic plasma electrical force, from heat, as then produced as electricity out to storage through that power ring apparatus.

Notes, the ring while being able to gather this heat from ionized plasma, had to be kept off the walls by the utilization of magnetic force.EMF or electromotive force, as a product of transference as based in a formula, is in lieu at this period of time, as we are only expressing the baseline workings. But this would be based on a principle of thousands of volts of energy, as shunted from the toroidally confined established field inside of the reactor, while under load.

However roughly said as Energy Balance

The energy balance for any fusion power device, using a hot plasma, is shown below.

spacer.png


where:

  • η, is the efficiency with which the plant captures energy
     
     
     
  • net, is the net power out
     
     
     
  • fusion, is the power generated by fusion
     
     
     
  • conduction, is the power lost from loss of mass
     
     
     
  • radiation, is the power lost as light, leaving the plasma *Source break even parameters Wikipedia, spherical fusion principle and a thank you to Wikipedia
     
     
     





Re-edit, Okay this is a lot of really humping force and you probably do not need all of the above given to power the Titor mobile.But lets do something a bit different.Breaking away from the use of fusion, lets instead take power from the two intersecting said globes which the Titormoble is said to produce.And these are the intersecting touching horizons of the twin double enveloped kerr artificially produced sphere, while the Titormoble is under power.

These points to where these globes of rapid re-fire horizons meet, will produce heat.If we then need power to make this said supposed time machine work, all we have to do, is to utilize these collision points, as these overlapping points produce through their juncture and mater as particles hitting that interface, a form of energy known as Hawking radiation.

On or near the relative poles of real large black holes, there is an injestion point, as in reality all a BH is, is an envaloped strcuture to where raw matter when fed into the BH, also produces heat, from the act of that black hole tearing it apaprt.*Source said in http://www.amazon.com/Thursdays-Universe-Marcia-Bartusiak/dp/0812912020

This discovery was made out of the primary black hole mechanics investigative group, to where this group of scientist after their discovery sat back and said,"My god black holes not only eat stuff, have a north and south pole, but produce energy, as a noted fountains within that process as well"!

So simply put, in order to run the Titormoble, all one has to do to recycle energy back into the dual Kerr producing tumbler assemblies, is to aim a transducer at those collision points made by the double Ker simulated horizion intersections.They figured out how to power this unit by capturing Hawking Radiation given off points.

Sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokamak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_tokamak Here is TFR contained fusion as a demonstration link, you all might need this too? http://www.splung.com/content/sid/5/page/fusion

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've got to do this, really kickass tech scene from Ironman


This is cool too.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_nEgvhd3rE

"You've gotta love it and it's got to be part of your blood that makes you what you are? Enjoy, Pinter

 
Yeah, now that we have had our commercial of nonsense babble from Pinter, are there any serious questions? I will answer any questions except for meaningless babble from Pinterest.

RMT

 
Woops' forgot one thing and then I'm out of here.Know that it does not take very much energy to time travel, if you examine your entry points as one would looks art ocean waves to ride in while surfing.It's very simple really.There is one example of a mythical being doing this and I will give you the page on them.It's in the link below.

All that you really need is just a little nudge of energy, in order to find that interspatial rift and with this little push of energy, then your'e in.You must have a destination ion mind before you jump, but after your'e traveling, all that you've got to do, is to either stay within your raceway in time, which is a conduit from point A to C and or to keep your body within an altered slightly electric state.*Note in time travel it's A to C, because of event fields.Never A to B as in regular physics.

You don't need worlds and worlds of energy, as RMT indicates here.Just an ity bit.So my earlier assessment of human by mutation internally held bio fusion of about ten 16 volt truck battierys is just about pretty accurate. 10 to 20 is held in a bio-capacitive field.

The proof of principle using this method is an experiment utilizing the radio receiver in making a paper clip disappear spatially, but joining a gap between the power supplies and radio antenna.There had been a witness to this and will give you the link later.

According to RMT you need the power of Hover Dam in order to time jump.Mmgh,.. I really do not think that this is required.

In the link below, the Vorgons gives a little hint of utilizing just some power, and then they slip interspatially.This is essentially correct.However let's see RMT workout with what he thinks is required and I promise that I will be amazed.Pinter

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Vorgon

But it doesn't end there, does it? In order for me to actually travel back in time, then ALL of the matter that was in motion around the world during that hour and a half would also have to be moved back to its original position...because as we established, time is measured via MATTER IN MOTION. And even if we moved every single bit of matter in the world back to the place it was at the start of my time travel segment, that still is not enough, right? Because the earth and all the heavenly bodies had also moved some distance during that time, right?
Click to expand...
You seem to be forgetting one little item RMT, time travel is a special event in relativity, so the time travelers mass is not directly related to their surroundings.At least you worked with the equation but this is in the area of mechanics and physical reality, so you can't convert this into the principles of time travel.

This situation is similar to the people that can enclose themselves into a large plastic ball and for fun roll about on the surface of the water.They can relate to the water, however the nature of the water, because mechanically speaking they are a separate entity apart from how that water functions, are a separate event.Roughly, but still the same principles involved.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you for that brilliantly unsubstantiated, non-technical analysis. :cautious:

Sheesh! :poop: At least I provided the reader with a valid equation and physical basis. What do you provide? :poop:

RMT

 
I was called on this thread.I feel that I had won this points necessary to prove what I was saying.I will not argue with city hall.

 
I recently finished watching the show "The Flash" and they start to go really in depth with time travelling.

I recommend you check it out, you may get some ideas from there. I know a lot of it is Sci-Fi but they explain it scientifically.

 
Your premise is based on your concept that the laws of physics are immutable and thus cannot change. And yet, NASA is currently building an engine that violates those laws of physics. The idea that energy consumption would prohibit any form of time travel is a tired old argument by those who are bound to immutable ideas in science and will be bypassed by those who can look at those ideas, understand them, and then think....how do I get around this to do what I want...and then move forward.

Remember...the lack of evidence of time travel does not preclude the existence of time travel.

 
Your premise is based on your concept that the laws of physics are immutable and thus cannot change.
Click to expand...
The laws of physics are immutable. They do not change, as they drive how the universe works. Not to nitpick (but rather to be exceedingly precise) I think what you mean here is our understanding and statement of the laws of physics in our quantified theories. In that case, of course I agree with you. But as Darby has pointed out in another thread (and as is well understood by all who practice science) any new theory that comes along only extends our current theories. It will not invalidate them because the theories as they stand are validated by empirical data, over and over again. So any new theory will always reduce to the existing theories in the limiting condition for which the new theory extends the old understanding.

And yet, NASA is currently building an engine that violates those laws of physics.
Click to expand...
Again, that is incorrect. It *may* (all the data is not in yet) violate our current understanding of the laws of physics. But it certainly does not, and cannot, violate the actual laws of physics. And there are still the possibilities of Type 1 and/or Type 2 experimental errors.

The idea that energy consumption would prohibit any form of time travel is a tired old argument by those who are bound to immutable ideas in science and will be bypassed by those who can look at those ideas, understand them, and then think....how do I get around this to do what I want...and then move forward.
Click to expand...
And this entire statement is not scientific in the least, but mere wishful thinking wrapped in an emotional presentation. The equations I have presented still describe how energy works on matter in motion. And matter in motion *are* the parameters that define any timeline. So until you can come up with a Popper-falsifiable, scientific theory that extends (will never replace) those equations, then all you are doing with your statements is exhibiting your hope for a breakthrough. Commendable, and even understandable, but not scientific in the least.

Remember...the lack of evidence of time travel does not preclude the existence of time travel.
Click to expand...
True. But there are plenty of other things that most definitely make the probability exceedingly small. And science never speaks in absolutes, always in probabilities.RMT

 
Back
Top