Extreme Gravitational Forces ? Well well

Tomar

Temporal Novice
I just recently discovered the "John Titor" Saga....

I wont point out all the irrelevance and funny stuff around it.. But what really got me was the famous picture where

"This picture, taken in Autumn of 2035, according to Titor, depicts his training officer inside the time displacement vehicle. He is shining a laser pointer out the window, which can be seen bending under the extreme gravitational forces"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor

Ok so aside from the fact that the photograph is of very poor quality (seems 2035 is a bad year for photography) here's a guy holding a laser pointer and the light from it is "bending under extreme gravitational forces"... Right

Now these forces that can bend even light, I wonder what they would do to an instructor (not to mention da car where da dude is sitting) ????? Or is the instructor (and da car) immune to gravity ?

Well, one more internet hoax.
 
According to JT you feel yourself pulled towards the microsingularities and experience about 2g's. kind of like being inside that UFO at the carnival that spins around real quick, thats about 2-3 g's.

You know what you did make me think of a Very good point.

Gravity would not bend the laser beam, or at least not to that extent. As we can point a laser beam at a large planet with much more gravity than earth such as Saturn. put it right along the atmosphere, and I just don't see it bending to that degree. Now, a black hole on the other hand would pull all light into it. But these are contained mini black holes that have an expanded tipler kerr field. Very interesting, but I don't think a laser beam would have that degree of Bend to it under 2g. I'm going to research this.

Has anyone figured out the Arc of the laser beam in the picture?
 
I agree with that, I don't think the Laser would bend like that from his description. The pull of gravity from a miniture black hole would do it, however.
 
Yes but he states the pull is only 2g's towards the dual microsingularities which are somehow contained by an unknown power source?

I'd be afraid of one of two things. First they could evaporate releasing all of their mass into energy. Or secondly they could fall. By fall I mean into the earth sucking everything up within seconds. If you ask me, microsingularities are not to be fooled around with. Not on earth anyway, lets blow up the moon first...

mini black hole or not, 2g is 2g and photons within a laser are not going to be affected that quickly or extreme under 2gs. That type of bend would probably require a much more extreme gravity field.

Also, more evidence this is a fake. Titor says the gravity field only extends around the car (which is why it takes some dirt with it). After the laserbeam has extended beyond the gravity field of the microsingularities it would continue in a straight line. You'd have a small curve and then a continued straight line path after the laser reaches the boundaries of the gravity field.

Make sense?

you may have helped us debunk JT for good... Can anyone do the math on this?
 
Ren,

I'd be afraid of one of two things. First they could evaporate releasing all of their mass into energy. Or secondly they could fall. By fall I mean into the earth sucking everything up within seconds. If you ask me, microsingularities are not to be fooled around with. Not on earth anyway, lets blow up the moon first...

With a micro mass black hole as in Titor's Saga (maximum 100 kg each because there are two and he said the mass of the entire gadget was ~500 lbs or about 225 kg) you don't have to worry about it gobbling up the Earth. You do have to worry about the Hawking Radiation. The BH's would evaporate in a few billionths of a second thus converting 200 kg of mass to energy in that time.

The conversion factor is approximately 100 megatons per 5 kg of mass. So Titor's Gadget would "evaporate" with a release of energy equivalent to a 4,000 megaton hydrogen bomb.

Bye-bye North and Central America. The tsunami generated off the coast of Florida would take care of Western Europe and Western Africa and Australia. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But the BH's, if they didn't evaporate wouldn't interact with anything. With a mass of 100 kg the radius of their event horizons would be ~1.5*10^-25 meters. An electron has a classical radius on the order of 10^-15 meters. They are 10^10 times larger than his BH's.

The BH's are so small that even the shortest wavelengths are astronomically larger. The most powerful EM field would be invisible to the BH's thus they can't be contained by one. If his BH's didn't evaporate they would have little chance of ever reacting with another subatomic particle during the life of the universe because they are so small as compared to the average distance between atoms in the most dense material on the Earth. Even though they are BH's at about 100 times their event horizon radius the gravitational effects are very small. The average distance between the BH and the nearest atoms would be several quadrillion times the radius of the EH. If they came into contact with an electron there would be no "gobbling". The electron is 10^10 times larger. It would simply pass bye without noticing the BH in the same manner that en elephant passes bye the eye of a needle without notice. The electron can no more fit into the BH than an elephant can fit through the eye of the needle.

You're quite correct about the degree of bending of the laser by a gravitational field strength of 2g's. The Sun's surface gravity is 28 g's. It manages to bend light a whopping 1.75 seconds of arc. Titor's photo shows the light being bent through an angle of about 45 degrees. That's about 80,000 g's at the laser light's path. I don't think that his molecules would survive the tidal forces. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Note: Electrons don't really have a well defined radius because they are quantum objects, not classical objects.
 
Darby,

So would you say this is mathematical proof the Titor Laser pic is farked?

Do you know what type of a containment system you would need to have in order to hold the microsingularities? I assume titor wasn't just holding them in his hands. And yes, if a microsingularity of that size were to evaporate, bye bye half the worlds population, convering almost 100% mass to energy in a fraction of a second I bet a 4,000 Megaton (not Kilo, but Mega), would be on the low end of the scale, needless to say it would be a large explosion.

Would there be radiation kicking out of this explosion similar to an H bomb or would this be a pretty clean reaction of mass to energy?
 
Excellent maths, you don't even need decimal places to prove this was a hoax.

Lets not get too far ahead of the game. This proves the laser picture was faked, not neccesarily that John Titors story is completely faked. Perhaps this was done on purpose, for some unknown reason, so that once enough time went by we would eventually figure out his laser pic was a fake.

all I am saying is, the two are not connected, although there is a correlation between the validity of his story and the laser pic, that correlation is not enough to make a statement that JT is a hoax. Just want to be clear on that point, I would like to prove/disprove more of his story, anyone else have ideas on what to start on next?
 
Lets not get too far ahead of the game. This proves the laser picture was faked, not neccesarily that John Titors story is completely faked. Perhaps this was done on purpose, for some unknown reason, so that once enough time went by we would eventually figure out his laser pic was a fake.

all I am saying is, the two are not connected, although there is a correlation between the validity of his story and the laser pic, that correlation is not enough to make a statement that JT is a hoax. Just want to be clear on that point, I would like to prove/disprove more of his story, anyone else have ideas on what to start on next?

I agree. I can't think of any other aspects of the story that are as eay to prove or disprove though. The only thing that comes to mind would be, If Titor was actually a time traveller why would he be posting on an internet message board?
 
I agree. I can't think of any other aspects of the story that are as eay to prove or disprove though. The only thing that comes to mind would be, If Titor was actually a time traveller why would he be posting on an internet message board?

well, why not? some companionship, some fun, if there are infinite realities, and you're going back to your own, no big deal if you screw up one timeline as one timeline was meant to be screwed up anyway.

Can we get someone to actually take some measurements of the photo and get the exact Arc? then with Darby's help we can calculate the approximate g-force required to bend the photons to such a degree. If that degree is still very high, like the 80,000G number, you would literally be crushed just being in the car. 80,000 is still our approximate, lets have someone measure the arc and do the math and get a 99% accurate approximation of the g-forces required to bend the laser.
 
Darby,

I was under the impression radiation was vented out of the machine in the form xrays. That, I think he said, was the hardest most complicated part of the device. And from the sounds of it, we are supposed to figure out a way to "capture" them in the LHC - so they wouldn't be evaporating. And saying the electron is not going to fit in the blackhole doesn't make sense, because nobody knows what happens when the electron gets near a black hole. It might not have to fit.



Tomar,

People around at the time brought this up did they not?? I'm sure Darby would have.

Did he ever say gravity was pulling each photon downward?

Wasn't it because the field was refracting light, not "moving" it?

I went looking for the original posts and I can't find them on this site or anomolies.net, WTF!?

Why don't you ask Darby why he's not referencing the old posts where JT answered this?


Cryomaniac: maybe he was trying to warn a friend about something.
 
Ren,

Do you know what type of a containment system you would need to have in order to hold the microsingularities?

The answer is "none." You can't contain an object the size that Titor suggests. It would be the smallest object in the universe - smaller than the smallest possible wave form and astronomically smaller than the distance between atoms in neutronium.

But because they won't react with anything you don't need to worry about containing them (if you're concerned that they might escape and have the Earth for lunch).
 
Ren,

If that degree is still very high, like the 80,000G number, you would literally be crushed just being in the car. 80,000 is still our approximate, lets have someone measure the arc and do the math and get a 99% accurate approximation of the g-forces required to bend the laser.

Keep in mind that, as I stated before, the Sun's surface gravity is 28g's (OK - it's really 28.1g's). That gravity bends light 1.75 seconds of arc. One second of arc is 1/216,000ths of 360 degrees. It's measurable but not something that the eye would notice over a few meters.

No matter how the measurements comes out the field will have a strength measured in the 10,000's of Earth Gravities. Not only would the vehicle implode the molecules themselves would be ionized.

But here's the kicker: none of this occurs with 100 kg of mass (which I've already said). With a 100 kg BH you get nothing. No reaction and no time machine.

We know that Titor's Gadget had to have an event horizon with a radius of about 3 meters to that it was large enough to engulf the entire Chevy pick-up.

The math is straight forward so we ask: What mass would a blackhole have if the radius of the event horizon was 3 meters?

Answer: 2*10^27 kilograms - 1/1000 the mass of the Sun.

That mass gives a radius of 2.964 meters.

Somehow I don't think that the chassis of his Chevy pick-up could handle 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms of load.

So - does Titor's photo prove that the situation is a hoax? Yes it does.
 
So - does Titor's photo prove that the situation is a hoax? Yes it does.

Thank you enough said.

I do remember titor talking about injecting the event horizon with electrons, also this device needed dual quantum singularities (a blackhole in laymens terms).

I believe the energy release of such a small amount of mass would outweigh any positives in science, basically you would have to be a fool to try to create and contain this microsingularities. Although they are very very Very small. Also they are very dangerous, this you would agree....

I also believe titor said all the time travel equipment weighed in ~ 600 pounds. As you have done the math on a 3 meter radius, what is the math for the actual singularities Titor claimed to have? Just how far does the event horizon extend?
 
Darby wrote:

"So - does Titor's photo prove that the situation is a hoax? Yes it does."

You do not know enough of the physics of his device to make that statement.

That is not to say what he said was true, only one cannot prove what he said was false based on the amount of information he gave.
 
MEM,
You do not know enough of the physics of his device to make that statement.
HA! No, to be absolutely correct: Darby knows enough about physics (full stop) to make that statement! There is little, if anything, in Darby's numbers to argue about when it comes to the amount of mass and levels of G force. In order to do what Titor claimed was being exhibited in the photo, the entire contents of the things in the photo would have to have ceased to exist in their displayed form if that much G force was present to bend the light.

I've been convinced Titor was a hoax from the beginning. Darby just gives me more and more reasons to feel comfortable that Titor was an Op.

RMT
 
newbie,

I was under the impression radiation was vented out of the machine in the form xrays. That, I think he said, was the hardest most complicated part of the device.

You have to go back and read what Titor said about Hawking Radiation. It's very telling and evidence that the story is a hoax. He was making the same mistakes that the average Internet BBS poster makes. He completely got it wrong about what Hawking Radiation is, where it arises and why. You don't control it. It's an artifact of the black hole itself.

I know that you were under the impression that the radiation was vented as x-rays because that's what he said. But it wouldn't be x-rays from this particular object. The radiation would be in the hard gamma ray /cosmic ray spectrum. And it would be released in a few billionths of a second. It wouldn't matter how you vented it, it would still be the conversion of 200 kg of mass to energy.

The energy released would be 18*10^18 Joules - in a few billionths of a second. That's about 4,000 megatons of TNT. If this actually happened the Earth would be a lifeless hot rock.

we are supposed to figure out a way to "capture" them in the LHC - so they wouldn't be evaporating.

That's not what they are going to be doing. They know that these BH's will evaporate in a few billionths of a second. They won't be directly observing a black hole. They will be analyzing the radiation and the particles that are released when the evaporation occurs and through the experiment determine whether they created a black hole. But they won't be capturing one.

They use sub-atomic particles because they can accelerate them to very close to the speed of light for the collision. They need that velocity to get sufficient mass for the collision (m = (E/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)). With an electron, for instance, they can pump up its relativistic mass to about 2,000x - on the order of the mass of a neutron.

Creating a black hole that would last long enough not to evaporate before it could be directly observed would require billions of kilograms of mass.

That would be very dangerous. It would be radiating (evaporating) and have a temperature many times greater than the surface of the Sun.

It could be captured in an EM field. But remember E = mc^2. The field is energy and it would be gobbled up by the BH - which would increase its mass. That in turn requires a stronger EM field to contain it.

This is a runaway reaction that ends with the EM field collapsing and the BH escaping. That BH would, indeed, end up gobbling up the Earth as it settled into the Earth's core.

And saying the electron is not going to fit in the blackhole doesn't make sense, because nobody knows what happens when the electron gets near a black hole. It might not have to fit.

In this case we aren't talking about black holes in general. We're refering to Titor's micro-mass black hole. We know the limits of the mass. It is approximately 100 kg because there are two of them and the total mass was given by Titor as 225 kg for the two BH's, the Box and the components.

We therefore know the approximate size of the event horizon - 10^-25 meters. That's 10^10 times smaller than an electron.

Virtually the entire elrctron, even if it passed directly over Titor's BH, would be so far away from the event horizon that there would be absolutely no unusual effect present over the volume of the electron.

To give you some sense of scale, if the Earth was Titor's BH then the electron would have a radius three times larger than the distance from the Sun to Pluto. That's approximately 10^10 times larger than the radius of the Earth.

So, though it is true that we don't know precisely what happens when an object passes through the event horizon of a black hole, we do know what happens when an object doesn't pass through the event horizon...nothing unusual.

Note: I should have said that the several billion kilogram black hole could, in theory, be captured by an EM field. That's a lot of mass. It's certainly beyond our present or foreseeable capabilities to hold up a million tons of mass in an EM field.
 
I've been convinced Titor was a hoax from the beginning. Darby just gives me more and more reasons to feel comfortable that Titor was an Op.


Although I agree with Rainmain 99% of the time, I am still not convinced the entire Titor story was a hoax, all that we can conclude at this point is that the Laser pic was a hoax. I remain open minded. However if enough new information comes out, that may change in the future... No offense Rainmain you know we're still cool... :D
 
We cool, Braux! Just don't be buying into this trash that we are about to have a civil war!


RMT
 
Civil War is different, alright let me just say, world upheaval. I tend to be very sensitive to changes on the global scale, call me a compass of the global masses. When things start to go strange/weird I get feelings. Everything seems ok as of late, however, I have no doubt things will start to go weird again. I am on these forums because I now believe perhaps with the help of others, I may gain some additional insight ahead of time.
 
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