Debunking the fools in the Claims section

T

TheCPE

Temporal Novice
I've only recently joined this forum but I have read quite a few passages already and am happy to say that there are a handfull of people that are truely science minded. Ofcourse the pranksters/numskulls outnumber the scientifically grounded.

Myself I am an engineer, with one of my hobbies being physics. But for the following "debunking" I will use strictly logic. As a computer engineer my logic skills are fairly keen, I am sure that there will be rebuttals to several points, but over all the theory I believe holds water. If nothing else, it would be nice to receive feedback into what some of the holes in it might be.

If time travel will ever be possible it would already being occuring now and would be popular knowledge.

Why?

So we have all of these people that will randomly claim to be from the future. Some provide "scientific" information about how they are able to travel through time, others try to prove they are genuine by performing meaningless tasks intead of providing true show stopping proof.

My theory is an expansion upon already existing logic used when dealing with these nut cases.

So somewhere in the future time travel becomes possible. This does several things, first it effectively removes the timeline. The timeline is removed because now any point in time is effectively "now" for the original time traveler.

The time traveler is able to go anywhere in time he desires. In doing so the possibility exists with each jump for a mistake to occur and the time traveler to be found out. Not found out as in a nut case claiming without evidence that he travels through time, but found out as in someone or some foundation witnesses a portion of the event with ample evidence.

This possibility of being discovered, truly discovered, becomes infinity. Why? Because even if the original time traveler never slips or shares his secrets the next person to discover it might, and then the next, or the next...etc. There is no limitation to the time line into the future and therefore no limitation of the number of people/groups that will discover time travel. I suppose for all intensive purposes there is at least a time line for this planet, I believe in 6 billion years our sun will swallow our planet, but not necessarily for humans. As the possibility of someone or group slipping and being discovered approaches infinity it becomes only a matter of time....ha but it doesn't! Once the first slip occurs and the secret is out the time traveling epidemic spreads further. Eventually the possibility of someone bringing the knowledge and capabilities to time travel further into the past becomes greater. Since the timeline has been removed this means that by now it has already occured.

In summation, eventual time travel means that it already exists. If it already exists it has infinite time to continue to exist. With infinite time the possibility of a traveler being witnessed and evidence being recorded approaches infinity. As the possibility of being discovered approaches infinity along with the number of travelers reaching infinity the possibility of time travel being done in any year becomes infinite.

I have only ever gotten two rebuttals that were mentionable. First, if the energy required to make jumps limits the distance the jump can cover than only a certain range of years would be included in the range and therefore be capable of "eventually" having time travel. My counter point to this is that with infinite time into the future eventually new methods of gathering the necessary energy will be discovered. Thus once again creating a possibility that approaches infinity of jumps being able to go far enough back with newly found energy sources.

The other rebuttal was that any slip that does occur can be erased with more time travel. My counter point here is that first, there is still the infinite possibility that the slip is unknown and therefore is not erased. Secondly, in order for these events to be erased the actual neuron connections in the brain would have to change. There seems no reasonable way that one persons travels through time could effect the physiologies of people that have not been effected by any time travel.

This line of thought did bring me to one interesting idea which unfortanately sounds semi Matrixy. Deja vu could simply be the brains reaction to receiving inputs that appear to be overlapping in time due to a close proximatey time jump. But that is mostly just sci-fi and I don't subscribe to it much at all.
 
Welcome TheCPE,
I've only recently joined this forum but I have read quite a few passages already and am happy to say that there are a handfull of people that are truely science minded. Ofcourse the pranksters/numskulls outnumber the scientifically grounded.
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It's nice to have a new forum member that helps come closer to evening the balance.
Myself I am an engineer, with one of my hobbies being physics.
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Me 2.
I have only ever gotten two rebuttals that were mentionable.
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I have my own theories that certainly dispel the "romantic" notion of time travel (i.e. that our physical bodies could travel to another time without changing). So while I believe that this romantic form of TT will never occur, it would be interesting to see what you think of this potential rebuttal:

Is it possible that religious experiences that are part of our information passed-down through the ages (say Moses with the burning bush that didn't burn on Mt. Sinai) could have been controlled experiments of people traveling back in time, to give information to people of the past? In this case, our history could contain just such "evidence of someone seeing someone else caught time traveling", but it has simply been misunderstood and mistold in stories for so long.

In fact, whether it was a time traveler or some other form of high tech, I tend to think that the story of Moses seems to clearly indicate he had some encounter with something very high-tech, that he could not possibly understand, and so he called it a "burning bush that is not consumed".

Any thoughts on this possibility? Welcome aboard,
RMT
 
Interesting idea. The idea I don't believe is necessarily true as far as mistaken interpretation of religion however it does require answers for the TT debunking.

It is quite possible that anyone that witnesses a TT event could completely mistake what is witnessed and either believe it is related to Paranormal, Religous, or physical phenomenon. This being said if TT events approach infinity the probability that a true interpretation and understanding will occur also approaches infinity. As far as the burning bush and other religous events, those I believe stem more from people trying to take the bible entirely literally. Just like the arc and 2 of every species on the boat. This can't be taken literally even ignoring physical constraints, because the animals would eat each other. Basically I don't think the burning bush was anything more than a metaphor.

However this does beg the question, what is behind paranormal experience and ghost stories?

First, the majority of ghost stories I believe are people playing hoaxes. Then ofcourse there are the stories told by people that while truthful can be easily explained. Noises in old houses like walking is nothing more than the heat and humidity causing the wooden planks to expand and condense. Light and dust particles playing tricks on the eye can cause odd visions. However, it is very possible that a true physical phenomenon occurs and is witnessed and at least with current science is unexplanable. Like many things were unexplanable a thousand years ago that is common knowledge now. The possibility that it is someone of a different time attempting to interact with a person of this time is not impossible just improbable. One interesting question that comes to mind is why you never hear of these paranormal events occuring to scientist, famous people, or highly influential and powerful people. Would these not be the people that it would make the most sense in attempting contact with through time travel?

So your point is a very good one, misinterpretation of what is witnessed could be a great cause in preventing TT from being understood in years before it is "discovered". However eventually the right organization with the right technology and the right equipment will intercept or record a TT event. I say eventually because we have all the time in the world for it to happen, and once this happens whether in our year, or in the year 3045, or 10765, it starts the chain reaction or helps build upon it that leads to the eventual avalanche.

After all the possibility of someone intentionally bringing the knowledge back is infinite as well.
 
Hi again CPE,

Great response. I will again reassert that I share several beliefs in common with you, but there are some things you seem to have come to conclusions about with which I might differ. And I always enjoy an intelligent discussion about such things...
This being said if TT events approach infinity the probability that a true interpretation and understanding will occur also approaches infinity.
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And that is the big "if", isn't it? Assumptions of infinity (or even the limit as some phenomenon approaches infinity...e.g. calculus) are always where I get off the bus and ask questions. I agree what you say is true if you assumption of infinity is correct. But as far as we know today, our science tells us that our human existence on this planet did not stretch infinitely into the past...again, as far as we can tell geologically. So it is difficult for me to immediately assume that "infinite past" is a valid concept as far as our human awareness is concerned. The same could be true, but with an even stronger argument about the future. Your theory is true IF we make the assumption that our human culture does not come to an end... say, as some of the "end times" stories say it will. So this is all I am saying...pointing out the qualifications that it seems your explanation is based upon.
However, it is very possible that a true physical phenomenon occurs and is witnessed and at least with current science is unexplanable.
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Exactly. And this is what I was referring to when I used the single example of Moses and the burning bush, and of course there are others. It could have really been a physical event (more than just a metaphor), but the observer of that event (Moses) could only use his terms of reference to describe it. He could not explain it in the scientific language and knowledge we have of, say, radioactivity today. How would Leonardo da Vinci explain the capability of a cell phone from today's world? Probably more accurately than someone from his time with less scientific awareness, but the question remains. Would it not appear as if a disembodied spirit was speaking through this small, hand-held magic box? /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The possibility that it is someone of a different time attempting to interact with a person of this time is not impossible just improbable.
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But how to quantify the probability or improbability? Of course science gives us tools to describe and model these probabilities, but they must be based on empircal observations...metrics... And once we know how we measure probability of any potential event, then we can at least estimate how probable or improbable it is. Going from the qualitative to quantitative is always the tough part, and it is what distinguishes a good engineer/scientist from a mediocre one.

One interesting question that comes to mind is why you never hear of these paranormal events occuring to scientist, famous people, or highly influential and powerful people.
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There is certainly a class of these folks who would be afraid to mention anything about such an experience for fear of being labeled a crackpot, and being scorned in their profession. And concern for losing one's job in this regard also cannot be overlooked.
After all the possibility of someone intentionally bringing the knowledge back is infinite as well.
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Allegedly, assuming our species continues to exist ad infinitum.

Great discussion...thanks,
RMT
 
You are right to question some of my assumptions. There is the one major assumption that I am making and you pointed it out just now. Funny because while at the gym the same thing came to my mind and I decided that I needed to somehow remedy the problem.


Both interpretations are possible as far as religous events, like I said I just tend to lean toward the writings being more methaphorical than narratives of actual occurred events. Ofcourse, the most probable explanation may just be the combination of both.


While it is quite possible that a scientist, or politician, or any influential powerful person may be afraid of bringing up an occurence like you mention due to repercussions, it seems probable that eventual a few would come forward or at least write something in their memoirs.

But on to the real deal.

The biggest limitation to the total spread of time travel through history is ofcourse the length of time of the existence of humans. Now it is unimportant that the universe does not have infinite past, current cosmology puts a time frame on the start to everything. Also, with current theories the universe is either flat, or a saddle and its expansion speed is increasing. This leads a lot of cosmologist to believe that the expansion may be able to go on forever as opposed to previous ideas that eventually a Crunch would occur due to the gravity of the universe. It was determined that only a closed universe would end in a big crunch.

It could therefore mean that the unvierse could go on "forever". This doesn't mean that humans have to exist forever, the earth will end in 6 billion years but it is ofcourse possible that other planets could be immigrated to by then.

Now predicting how long humans will exist is a big problem. In fact at this point I can't think of any good method of doing this.

By proposing that time travel must not exist since we don't know about it and use it now I am really just saying that either it is physically impossible OR time constraints on human existence disallows its invention.

Currently I can not think of any good argument agaisnt the possibility of humans dying off soon after its invention, but I will work on that.
 
CPE,
Both interpretations are possible as far as religous events, like I said I just tend to lean toward the writings being more methaphorical than narratives of actual occurred events. Ofcourse, the most probable explanation may just be the combination of both.
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I totally agree. Your consideration of a balance between two extreme positions reinforces a scientific approach.
While it is quite possible that a scientist, or politician, or any influential powerful person may be afraid of bringing up an occurence like you mention due to repercussions, it seems probable that eventual a few would come forward or at least write something in their memoirs.
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I also agree with this reasoning. In fact I know that if I were put in this position, the least I would do is journal it, analyze it, and perhaps even discuss scientific theories about what it may be with others. I would seek to bounce things off my peers, and not all of them would need to know what it is I think I may have observed.
It could therefore mean that the unvierse could go on "forever". This doesn't mean that humans have to exist forever, the earth will end in 6 billion years but it is ofcourse possible that other planets could be immigrated to by then.
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Exactly, and this brings up many more issues that would need to be explored, especially given our current understanding that it is SpaceTime that is the fabric of the universe, and not simply Time as an uncoupled dimension. It even makes way for consideration of UFOs in that, if one does posit the human race may someday emigrate to other worlds that other worlds may be trying to emigrate to earth. And this could lead to a consideration of what are the ramifications of closed time-like loops in SpaceTime.
Now predicting how long humans will exist is a big problem. In fact at this point I can't think of any good method of doing this.
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Agreed, and I would tend to argue we (as a species) need to learn a whole lot more about "evolution" not only of life forms in the universe, but energetic forms in general. As with the consideration of closed time-like loops above, this provides another excellent area for research and investigation to yield new knowledge about how the universe "works".
By proposing that time travel must not exist since we don't know about it and use it now I am really just saying that either it is physically impossible OR time constraints on human existence disallows its invention.
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And I tend to believe the former, and given our current scientific understanding about SpaceTime as an integrated metric, I think this knowledge is sufficient for any reasonable person of science to conclude that we cannot travel through "Time only", and certainly not in the romantic sense that is portrayed in fiction. At best, we may find some way to physically modify SpaceTime, but I contend that all of our known conservation laws (and some we might not know of) would prevent this from happening without some change in the Mass structure of any body that would travel through modified SpaceTime.

Along these lines, I am of the firm belief that the laws of Conservation of Momentum and Energy are unbendable rules for how Mass interrelates with Time and Space. These laws clearly limit the range of possibilities for all physical events to something less than infinite. And once you can show a bound on infinity you are starting to approach theories that can be effectively reasoned about in the mathematical domain.

RMT
 
The CPE,

Unfortunately, many of your "claims" could place you side-by-side with the "fools" in the claims section.

For all we know, your engineering degree could be "sanitary engineering" with a hobby in "phisics" (what my mother used to call it when taking a laxative.)

With all due respect, your "theories" are full of holes and lack sophistication in purely predictable ways. As Rainmantime has already stated, most of what you are talking about revolves completely around the "romantic" versions of what time-travel would appear to be. I could easily take most of your "arguments" about the nature of "infinities" and turn it around to mean entirely different things.

It could be reasonably assumed that it also could be "infinitely possible" that no one would breathe a word of what they witnessed on their romantic time venture.

If you truly are a fan of physics, then you must be aware of the strong possibility that the "dimensions" which are thrown about MUST exist at an impossibly small area of spacetime and that it would take a Type III supercivilization to work out the details of how to access that impossibly small "place". For all we know, that place may be a one-way street. Even further, it could possibly be that it is such a utopian place that no one would WANT to jeopardize losing it by coming back to such a mundane place as the "present" to tell others about it. You are making far too many assumptions with many "romantic notions" and I see very little scientific thought going into your conclusions.

Any "fool" can see that to call other people fools--is not the best way to get yourself taken seriously. I suggest you read the qualifications for the discussions here. Even we who have wholeheartedly felt that some "claims" be relegated to the claims section to die a slow death, give everyone his due since not one of us has the whole answer on such a far-fetched subject as time travel. It doesn't take an engineer or a physicist to outline for us that 2 + 2 = 4.

Those of us here who are spiritually minded are not here to make YOU spirtually minded. We are just simply putting everything on the table since science seems to be doing exactly that. Classic science has come to the conclusion that "classic science" cannot provide the necessary answers to take a relevant step forward in our understanding of "life, the universe and everything".(to coin a phrase from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.) If nothing else, you have shown that you are very closed-minded and strongly predjudiced. You have also taken license to make conclusions about "religious things" that you don't even believe in. That, in itself, is a contradiction. Being an "engineer" you should know that all things are "relative". Relativity doesn't just belong to the physical plane. It covers the whole gamut. Even the "kooks" here (they know who they are), occasionally come up with "gems" that blow away the most sophisticated arguments. My 2 year old great grandson sometimes says things that would put the greatest minds to shame.

I'm not trying to put you down here. I respect and honor your input and Rainmantime's response to it. Just trying to level the playing field a bit is all. Welcome to the forum.
 
For all we know, your engineering degree could be "sanitary engineering" with a hobby in "phisics" (what my mother used to call it when taking a laxative.)
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It is actually a M.S. in computer engineering, but thanks for the concern.

With all due respect, your "theories" are full of holes and lack sophistication in purely predictable ways. As Rainmantime has already stated, most of what you are talking about revolves completely around the "romantic" versions of what time-travel would appear to be. I could easily take most of your "arguments" about the nature of "infinities" and turn it around to mean entirely different things.
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I suppose you missed some of my origianl post, which is ok I did type a lot so I will restate it. The debunking I was attempting to do was on a strictly LOGICAL level without involving any science. Why? Because science changes, as of now science quite easily removes the "romantic" idea of time travel being possible, however science of the future could change these views there is no way of knowing the future of physics. And yes you are correct you can make any claims you like over an infinite time frame and that is precisely the point. With infinite time, there are infinite possibilities which means that EVERYTHING will eventually happen.

It could be reasonably assumed that it also could be "infinitely possible" that no one would breathe a word of what they witnessed on their romantic time venture.
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The difference between that assumption and my assumption that the secrets will be slipped is that yours is the pre-determined behaviour. And obviously both behaviours over an infinite timeline will happen infinitely, its not a difficult concept.

If you truly are a fan of physics, then you must be aware of the strong possibility that the "dimensions" which are thrown about MUST exist at an impossibly small area of spacetime and that it would take a Type III supercivilization to work out the details of how to access that impossibly small "place". For all we know, that place may be a one-way street. Even further, it could possibly be that it is such a utopian place that no one would WANT to jeopardize losing it by coming back to such a mundane place as the "present" to tell others about it. You are making far too many assumptions with many "romantic notions" and I see very little scientific thought going into your conclusions.
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I suppose I should go ahead and say once again that as I originally stated I am not using anything more than logic. Arguing the science of time travel is absurd at this point, but if you think you have all of the science answers to it, please publish it and enlighten the rest of the world.

Any "fool" can see that to call other people fools--is not the best way to get yourself taken seriously. I suggest you read the qualifications for the discussions here. Even we who have wholeheartedly felt that some "claims" be relegated to the claims section to die a slow death, give everyone his due since not one of us has the whole answer on such a far-fetched subject as time travel. It doesn't take an engineer or a physicist to outline for us that 2 + 2 = 4.
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If you don't think that someone who claims to be from the future is a fool for either believing it himself or believing that others will believe his hoax than please tell me what you would call that individual. I am not looking for respect from people that are offended by me considering those people fools.

If nothing else, you have shown that you are very closed-minded and strongly predjudiced. You have also taken license to make conclusions about "religious things" that you don't even believe in.
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I find this statement quite amusing. I am close minded because I think people claiming to be time travelers are fools, well I take that as a compliment. Also, I think every person is entitled to their conclusions about "religous things", its called an opinion. Apparently I am not allowed to have my own? Espeically since I even worded "I believe" and not IT IS SO.

That, in itself, is a contradiction. Being an "engineer" you should know that all things are "relative". Relativity doesn't just belong to the physical plane. It covers the whole gamut. Even the "kooks" here (they know who they are), occasionally come up with "gems" that blow away the most sophisticated arguments. My 2 year old great grandson sometimes says things that would put the greatest minds to shame.
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Huh? Not only have you entirely gone off on a tangent from the topic but you are proposing relativity to religion...ok.

I'm not trying to put you down here. I respect and honor your input and Rainmantime's response to it. Just trying to level the playing field a bit is all. Welcome to the forum.
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I'm not trying to call you out but at this point I don't respect or honor any of your provided input. Rainman and myself have had a pleasant discussion about my little theory in which neither of us made any attacks or slights at the other. We agreed on almost every point and he brought about a good consideration that needed to be made as far as my little theory went. You have said far more about ME as a person due to my one thread than my thread itself. Maybe you think you are from the future??


P.S. I am sure that you are very proud of your grandson but I will bet my right arm (im right handed) that he couldn't say anything profound enough to catch me off guard.

Cheers.
 
This is what I see as a problem with the time travel theories or considerations. It seems to be assumed that time traveling would be done by a guy ( or gal ) stepping into a device or craft and traversing across the timeline, either to the past or future.

I would think that when the technology is created ( has advanced ), allowing travel in time, the actual time traveling may be more of an electronic or even bio-mechanical, nature.

A suppossed time traveling organization could essily tap into the satelites of our current time to monitor the events. No need to send someone "on" the surface of the planet.

And as I mentioned before, who knows how far genetic science will advance in several hundred years. How easy would it be to utilize genetically altered DNA strings that would be borne into a particular time period and allow the time traveling organization to monitor the events of that age, or effect changes through the genetically altered individual. In Leonardos time, the chance of anyone of his era discovering any alterations to his physical composition would be extremely remote.

Perhaps to be born as an ordinary man, but injected with specifically designed genetically altered "material" , perhaps, even programable, by the future organization to achieve their goals. The exposure of the time traveler would be minimal, yet, the manipulation of that time period completed, by a quick injection. How long would someone need to be in any given time period to do this...just a few seconds?

And one could even suppose that a satelite in orbit during most of mans ancient history would "NOT" be discovered, and at some point burn up as it fell to Earth long ago, preventing discovery at a later date.

There are many methods that a future civilization may use to travel in time, but sending a person to "live" in any given time period seems like it would be the last choice.
 
You bring up good points, for clearification however when I say the "time traveler" it could just be a device or instrument that I am referring too.

Also while your argument of tapping into the satellites and only having to be injected for a split second to retrieve data would seem to make discovery more difficult, it appears that this behaviour would be displayed from a government with TT capability, or a highly organized institution. You can't throw out the possibility of one or few individuals getting the technology and not being near as careful with it as described above. I'm not saying it is a possibility it is just one of the infinite possibilities.

I still believe that as Rainman pointed out the biggest opposition to this logic based theory not working is the time frame of human existence into the future past the point of TT origination.

One more thing just to play devil's advocate, in order for a future generation to use or own satellites they would first have to make trips to retrieve spec docs about the satellites and therefore would have to send devices actually onto earth. Bits of 0's and 1's are meaningless if you don't know the protocol:)

Interesting post though!
 
...when I say the "time traveler" it could just be a device or instrument that I am referring too.
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Oh really? Somehow, from the context of your posts, this didn't seem to enter into the picture as drawn by your writing. The title of this thread " Debunking the fools in the Claims section" doesnt seem to include or refer in any way to any devices or genetically altered individuals within a particular era.

Also while your argument of tapping into the satellites and only having to be injected for a split second to retrieve data would seem to make discovery more difficult, it appears that this behaviour would be displayed from a government with TT capability, or a highly organized institution. You can't throw out the possibility of one or few individuals getting the technology and not being near as careful with it as described above. I'm not saying it is a possibility it is just one of the infinite possibilities.
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in order for a future generation to use or own satellites they would first have to make trips to retrieve spec docs about the satellites and therefore would have to send devices actually onto earth. Bits of 0's and 1's are meaningless if you don't know the protocol:)
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Keep in mind, such an institution may be beyond our present day level of comprehension.

We have no idea what events will occur in the far future, and many seem to assume that the future institutions would be as inept as many of our present day institutions.

The same goes for "their" ability to utilize any technology of the past for information gathering, or event manipulation.

What/or whom are you using for a platform of comparison?
 
Huh? I don't think the title states "I am only considering humans as TTs" either.

Anyway....

Yeh your right, we have no idea what technology may exist in the future. However its pretty safe to assume that if you don't know the protocols or even what information the specific satellite is retrieving than you can't make any of the 0's and 1's that are recorded into anything useful. Example, if you have a file format for a picture that your computer does not recognize and your computer has no idea what the image is supposed to be of, than you can't decipher the data to translate it into the image on your screen. If you knew what the image was of than you could use pattern recognition to attempt to reconstruct the image from the data but without either you have nothing to work from.

Which means either the documents will have to still be on file, or the documents will need to be retrieved.

As a side note I've been involved with many reverse engineering projects and that is why I feel comfortable making the above statements. There have to be knowns, so that behaviours and manipulations to the system equate to useful data as opposed to more random data. And there is ofcourse the idea that key to communication is a known protocol between the participates.
 
Paradox244:
Are there sane people in this thread?
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Are you therefore inferring that all the people who have contributed to this thread are insane? If so, why not just state your feelings? IMO, I would have to say that all of the people in this thread are quite sane, and able to convey their thoughts in a cogent manner.

RMT
 
No, you misunderstand me, I haven't read this whole thread, so I wanted to know if the people here are sane. I'm not saying you're not, I'm saying that the people in claims are not. I just wanted to know about your sanity status before getting involved in this thread. No offense meant.

EDIT: Ok, in retrospect it probably would have been easier to just read the thread. Oops...
 
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