Consciousness, Cosmology, & Gravity-Jack Sarfatti

[RainmanTime]

Hi Folks,

I'd imagine that a lot of this post will be most interesting to Ollyb, and folks like him, than it might be to others. However, I have been following the work of physicist Dr. Jack Sarfatti for several years, and I think he is going in the right direction. I received the following from Jack as the central theme of a physics paper/presentation he is working on for an upcoming event. I think it ties together several major themes in physics, and it relates to things I have discussed relative to Information, Energy, and Momentum (Forces+Moments)

RMT

Author: Jack Sarfatti, Ph.D.
Theme: Consciousness, Cosmology, and Gravity

The possible connection between these three ideas has been suggested
by Sir Roger Penrose in his series of semi-popular books. What do all
three ideas have in common? John Archibald Wheeler speaks of IT FROM
BIT in which the material world emerges from what Sir James Jeans
called "mind stuff." Olaf Stapledon's "Star Maker", P.K. Dick's VALIS
and Gene Roddenberry's "Q" in Star Trek resonate with this possible
enigmatic mind-matter connection. The boundary between fact and
fiction is not as sharp as it once was. Time travel to the past is
now the subject of papers in the Physical Review. The cosmic dark
energy, though only 10^-30 density of water is 73% of the the stuff
of our pocket universe in the "Cosmic Landscape." What is the "dark
matter" that is 23%? Are they both simply forms of quantum vacuum
zero point energy of negative and positive pressure respectively. Can
the dark energy be amplified on a small scale to make traversable
wormhole time travel machines to the past that evade Hawking's
"chronology protection"? Is consciousness some kind of physical field
that can couple strongly to the fabric of space-time itself? Michio
Kaku calls this a "Type IV" super-civilization. George Chapline and
Robert Laughlin suggest gravity as an emergent macro-quantum vacuum
coherent phenomenon analogous to a superfluid. I have published a
different detailed model of that as well on the Cornell Archive. That
the conscious mind is also a macro-quantum coherent field like a
superfluid with holographic properties is also now a common idea. Is
the common factor macro-quantum coherence? Can the coherent phases
that may make the fabric of curved spacetime be locked to the
coherent phases of a machine or even a living mind? One of the basic
properties of quantum information/computer theory is the "no perfect
cloning a quantum" theorem that forbids the sending of signals
through the particle and event horizons of cosmology and black hole
physics. This implies that string theory's "Cosmic Landscape" of
parallel universes is unscientific. This is David Gross's lament in a
recent Nature. However, experiments by Dick Bierman and others
suggest "signal nonlocality" in living matter. The theory of "signal
nonlocality" has been developed by Antony Valentini. It violates
micro-quantum theory, but not the macro-quantum theory of emergent
phenomena that may include consciousness, cosmology and gravity. This
would then, perhaps, give us Hawking's "Mind of God", the Vast Active
Living Intelligence of perhaps a "spin foam" cosmic computer, with
the Megaverse as a "simulation" in The Matrix of M-Theory?

 

[OllyB]

Hi Ray,

I think that there is some really good stuff said within this and i'm going to search for more info on some of these names you have quoted in your thread here, As with me level of understanding i only just managed to follow most of it, and need to read more on these thoeries specifically to further my understanding. Its certainly motivates me that there are such educated minds seriously looking at this sort of information. I would not have expected you to post this on the forum, Ray. But i'm glad that this is another rare occasion that you did indeed decide to post this sort of information. I really want to focus on a main point, so i'll probably go off track big time and go into areas you don't like as you cant back up your opinions with hard maths. Then again, i expect that its probably only you and me reading, so what the hell...;

That
the conscious mind is also a macro-quantum coherent field like a
superfluid with holographic properties is also now a common idea

For sure, Holographic, is a good term here as the mind is not set. if the hologram is messed with, the image changes to the observer.

There seems to be a direct link between the mind and material form. The idea of the 'holographic universe' is no new thing. But, to be this in its nature, the mind must also be a smaller personalised universe within itself, working from the same prinicples and constantly interacting with the larger program we all feed off, the 'outward' universe.

if this is the case, this would help explain why the holographic nature of the universe links directly to suggestive personal reality and subsequent reality engineering. The mind and the 'outside' universe have to work together otherwise living and evolving through it, would not be possible for the being that lays outside of the holographic properties of space/time. The universe is only coherent "conscious" energy, and its only with our own conscious minds that we can individualise and interpret the energy in an equally coherent way.

The reason why i believe this is possible, is because the two programs arent all that different at their core. And have they have the potential to interact greatly at times and manifest this to the conscious mind. At a deeper level - they are not separate.

As far as i know there is really only one practical subject (currently) to evaluate this on a personal level, and this is to look at the dynamics or remote viewing.

Holograms are just interpretations of information. The idea that remote viewers are taking their mindset out of the default linear outward appearence/experience of Massive TimeSpace and tapping into information (a level of consciousness that holds all the information at the same) is quite telling. Its like someone showing you a Power-Point presentation via the 'slideshow' feature, you have to sit through the lot, one after the other and time flows linear as it happens.

A remote viewer can break out of this linearity, access another function of the sofware and bring up the whole collection of slides at the same time then choose which on he/she sees. That software is an information record (the slides are the same original slides - just all grouped together without time lag)

Of course, the next step up is potentially where we start to see evidence of the two programs coming toether as one at a deeper level (at least - deepest that we can percieve at this level of material being). And this is 'Remote Sensing', Where the consciousness must become the hologram that is being viewed. Even the smallest lower level conscious thought at this level is enough for the mind break the perception of the two prgrams merging back into one. This merging however when it does occur, implies that everything is based on consciousness - even materiality itself and all energetic events. The breaking of the two (ie When a remote sensor messes up and pushes himself out of a viewing), shows that as we 'evalute' and 'interpret', We are automatically redirected back to our own personalised concious reality.

It may well be that the MOST (not necessarily the only way - just optimal) accurate possible way of targeting a specific point in time or event stream (for the purposes of time travel)...Will only be when the consciousness of Massive SpaceTime as RMT calls it, is really understood and then able to be manipulated. Maybe this will be with the merging of the higher human mind with technology, or via some sort of future 'Quantum computer', which will also take into account similar prinicples.

Where does consciousness appear to be condenesed the most within the universe? In my view - It seems to be the celestial bodies (planets and stars). And i think the potential power they have within their powergrid and thus their link to consciousness is in fact the most practical (rather, cheapest) solution to the power needed for TT. I really liked your interpretation of a certain phrase, Ray - and you said this in relation to gravity. And i'd say it only this forum, Only its a.) unfair as its your own personal interpretation, and also b.) I think that most of this forum will not be interested. In my view, it may be the original 'intention'/'expression', behind all holographic 'information' > 'energy' etc within (at least) this material section of the universe. And possibly why the universe will then start to contract after its finished its current cycle of expansion.

Seems to me that the celestial bodies, have the potential to be linked to the 'outward' program of the universe AND our own individual minds. The stars/planets (being connected to the conciousness of the holographic univrse) are what generate the gravity and I think that this is a telling suggestion.


Like RMT i also think of MASS, SPACE and TIME as one structure. So for me personally if consciousness is one - it also has to be the base for all three. And this is why higher consciousness can reach above all three.

excuse grammar


Kind regards,
Olly

 

[norn_iron]

im interested!
some of the best stuff i read on here! keep it up! sorry i cant contribute, but when it comes to this stuff im crap at putting my thoughts into words but it has gave me some interesting things to search on google /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[RainmanTime]

Hi Olly,

i'm going to search for more info on some of these names you have quoted in your thread here, As with me level of understanding i only just managed to follow most of it, and need to read more on these thoeries specifically to further my understanding.

Jack Sarfatti's website is http://www.stardrive.org... BUT BEWARE OF SEVERAL THINGS before you visit and/or engage him:

1) Jack's knowledge of classical physics is WELL beyond my own, and he OFTEN uses terms that some would call "word salad" without explaining them.
2) Jack is MUCH LESS PATIENT with with crackpots and non-scientific approaches than I am... and that is saying a LOT because I realize that I am not as patient as maybe I should be.
3) Anyone who writes Jack telling him how "advanced" they are, and how they "have it all figured out" who can NOT back it up with maths will certainly be called a clueless crackpot. If you continue to push your case with him without being able to show math, you will be torn to pieces. I guarantee it.
4) Jack knows tensor math, and is especially well-versed in Einstein's GTR and STR. He does not (as yet) endorse my Massive SpaceTime 3x3 tensor theory, but he does know that I am working the full-up tensor formulations, and he even gives me some help from time to time.
5) It will become very apparant if you read any of his EMAIL archives on his website that he has quite a large ego. And I know some would laugh when I say this but: His ego is MUCH larger than my own! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif So again, if you (or other readers) can't stand me, you will REALLY love Jack!

I would not have expected you to post this on the forum, Ray. But i'm glad that this is another rare occasion that you did indeed decide to post this sort of information.

I post this because I respect Jack as a scientist who DEMANDS a scientific approach for his own work and others. I may not yet grasp all of his work, or all of his math but I know there are many places where his work and theories align with mine. So he is a great resource for me in that regard. You REALLY have to know tensors and even then his work requires a LOT of study time if you hope to understand how the math applies to the physical situations he is trying to describe.

For sure, Holographic, is a good term here as the mind is not set. if the hologram is messed with, the image changes to the observer.

There seems to be a direct link between the mind and material form. The idea of the 'holographic universe' is no new thing. But, to be this in its nature, the mind must also be a smaller personalised universe within itself, working from the same prinicples and constantly interacting with the larger program we all feed off, the 'outward' universe.

Jack will also ALWAYS cite references that he utilizes in his own work, and holography is no exception. He admits to following a LOT of work of the great John Archibald Wheeler (JAW), who was one of the first to suggest that the universe is really a holographic projection in 3-D of a 4-D phenomenon. There was an EXCELLENT article on Wheeler's theories in this regard in a 2003 issue of Scientific American. In it, he is attempting to show a relationship between Information Entropy and Thermodynamic Entropy (something I fully believe in, and have been attempting to explain from an engineering level in many threads here).

if this is the case, this would help explain why the holographic nature of the universe links directly to suggestive personal reality and subsequent reality engineering. The mind and the 'outside' universe have to work together otherwise living and evolving through it, would not be possible for the being that lays outside of the holographic properties of space/time. The universe is only coherent "conscious" energy, and its only with our own conscious minds that we can individualise and interpret the energy in an equally coherent way.

Again, this reflects some of the thinking of JAW. JAW uses the terminology of "BIT from IT, and IT from BIT". The BIT is the physical entity of our physical universe while the IT is the aphysical consciousness. The "reality" that we observe can NOT exist without BOTH BIT and IT. It is a mutually symbiotic relationship. Consciousness created the physical universe for the purpose of physical observations, so consciousness could "comprehend itself".

The reason why i believe this is possible, is because the two programs arent all that different at their core. And have they have the potential to interact greatly at times and manifest this to the conscious mind. At a deeper level - they are not separate.

Amen, bro.

Holograms are just interpretations of information. The idea that remote viewers are taking their mindset out of the default linear outward appearence/experience of Massive TimeSpace and tapping into information (a level of consciousness that holds all the information at the same) is quite telling. Its like someone showing you a Power-Point presentation via the 'slideshow' feature, you have to sit through the lot, one after the other and time flows linear as it happens.

A remote viewer can break out of this linearity, access another function of the sofware and bring up the whole collection of slides at the same time then choose which on he/she sees. That software is an information record (the slides are the same original slides - just all grouped together without time lag)

I understand what you are saying, and agree in general. But let me clarify one minor error: A hologram is much more than just an "interpretation" of information. Rather, a hologram is actually a PROJECTION of information across a given dimensional boundary. The best example is the physical thing we typically associated with a hologram: Those two-dimensional etchings (usually in crystal or glass) that are perceived as a 3-dimensional object. In this case the hologram is perceived as information in 3-D when in actuality is only exists in 2-D. But now raise the dimensional numbers by one in each case and apply it to our universe:

If our universe IS holographic, then it is actually a projection of 3-dimensions (the ones we perceive) in a larger 4th dimension. Now this is where my theory splits from standard theory. I do not limit the 3 dimensions of our physicality to ONLY spatial 3-D (X,Y,Z). Rather, I think it is clear that we live in the 3 dimensions called Mass, Space, and Time (and each of these is a set of 3 dimensions in and of themselves). It is my belief that the 4th dimension beyond Massive SpaceTime is the dimension of consciousness... and yes, I agree that the RV'er essentially has the capability to "jump out" of 3-D MAssive SpaceTime and view the hologram of our universe as a whole, rather than in a linearized "sequence".

It may well be that the MOST (not necessarily the only way - just optimal) accurate possible way of targeting a specific point in time or event stream (for the purposes of time travel)...Will only be when the consciousness of Massive SpaceTime as RMT calls it, is really understood and then able to be manipulated. Maybe this will be with the merging of the higher human mind with technology, or via some sort of future 'Quantum computer', which will also take into account similar prinicples.

It will not be a surprise that I agree, and the "ancient knowledge" that folks like myself, OvrLrd, Zerubbabbel, CAT, and others does indeed explain it this way (although "encoded" so it is available as a more easy-to-understand "story"). The aphysical Spirit/Soul/Mind are equal and opposite to the physical Mass/Space/Time. It is an eternal "dance" between the two... one might say an eternal OSCILLATION!

And when we start understanding that our aphysical selves are constantly in an oscillation with the equal and opposite physical Massive SpaceTime, this is where we come to understand just how important FREQUENCY DYNAMICS and FREQUENCY RESPONSE and HARMONICS becomes to understanding how to move beyond our current technology. Our science currently has a good handle on Harmonic Resonance and its effects in the physical measures of Mass, Space, and Time. What we must now come to understand is how Mind couples to Massive SpaceTime, and how we can use the principles of Harmonic Resonance between these two elements to achieve "miracles" (i.e. technologies which were previously branded as "miracles" in spiritual texts).

I really liked your interpretation of a certain phrase, Ray - and you said this in relation to gravity. And i'd say it only this forum, Only its a.) unfair as its your own personal interpretation, and also b.) I think that most of this forum will not be interested.

I know which one you mean, and agree that many (not all) here would just dismiss it out of hand.

In my view, it may be the original 'intention'/'expression', behind all holographic 'information' > 'energy' etc within (at least) this material section of the universe. And possibly why the universe will then start to contract after its finished its current cycle of expansion.

Virtually ALL mystical texts and mystical traditions say this same thing. And those who would argue that "this is not science, it is a religious/mystical story" can only make this claim UNTIL the final scientific quantification of its truths are completed. By then, the people who today say it is not truth will completely deny that science validated the ancient words. Instead, they will just say that science "discovered" it, and that it is merely a coincidence that it aligns with ancient texts in some (or even MANY) ways.

Seems to me that the celestial bodies, have the potential to be linked to the 'outward' program of the universe AND our own individual minds. The stars/planets (being connected to the conciousness of the holographic univrse) are what generate the gravity and I think that this is a telling suggestion.

The average man has (LITERALLY) a very narrow view of what "life" is. And by literally, I continually refer one to examine just how NARROW is the band of frequencies that we humans can detect vibrations (oscillations)! Our auditory frequency response band (frequencies we can hear) is VERY narrow in the entire electromagnetic spectrum, and our spectral frequency respond band (frequencies we can see visible light) are also VERY narrow. Any entity in the universe that can ONLY express its "life" and "intelligence" far outside the bands we can perceive are going to (erroneously) be branded by us as "not alive". My, what an egocentric view we have developed as "enlightened" humans! /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Like RMT i also think of MASS, SPACE and TIME as one structure. So for me personally if consciousness is one - it also has to be the base for all three. And this is why higher consciousness can reach above all three.

And the "old saying" of "Mind over Matter" actually reflects exactly this.

Nice post, Olly. Thanks for sharing!
RMT

 

[TTA_01]

Interesting read Ray, though a bit to technical for the TTA's taste.

I hope you don't mind if I interject and make a few comments, I know you were addressing Olly, so please pardon my rudeness for butting in.

And I know some would laugh when I say this but: His ego is MUCH larger than my own! So again, if you (or other readers) can't stand me, you will REALLY love Jack!

I found his entry in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Sarfatti

Are you telling me that this humble looking, sweet old man has a bigger ego then you do? Never would have thought it possible

j/k.

Rather, I think it is clear that we live in the 3 dimensions called Mass, Space, and Time (and each of these is a set of 3 dimensions in and of themselves). It is my belief that the 4th dimension beyond Massive SpaceTime is the dimension of consciousness... and yes, I agree that the RV'er essentially has the capability to "jump out" of 3-D MAssive SpaceTime and view the hologram of our universe as a whole, rather than in a linearized "sequence".

I won't go into the details of my past, but in the Co$ (Church of $cientology) they have this concept called: MEST (Mass, Energy, Space & Time). Much of what is described technically & mathematically in the scientific findings of others, is also conveyed by the Co$ through a simple rudimentary means of cartoon drawings, clay expressed postulates, and philosophical lectures by LRH. They further claim that through their processing or extensive (not to mention expensive $$$) training one goes through, that by the release of negative experiences, emotions and past lives, one can attain a consciousness that is free and able to "jump out" and view "the whole track" as what they call it.

Furthermore, from what I’ve gathered on the internet, some of these practices and training exercises to reach this level that the Co$ claims & charges an arm and a leg for, can also be found through the defectors of this sect, called the Freezone, for FREE!

Just my 2 cents.

TTA

 

[OllyB]

BUT BEWARE OF SEVERAL THINGS before you visit and/or engage him:

nice to see that this Thread has managed to survive for a second round

I would not approach this man anyway, as i would not be able to talk to him from his angle - as i do not have the level of education. It wouldn't be at all productive for either of us. However what you describe of his workings will motivate to look deeper into his theories and try to learn more about his workings. It certainly does encourage me however, that scientists are properly looking into such matters in view to potentially (at some point) explain it via maths. As in the future many people will benefit. This generation there seems to be a big departure, whereby the majority of scientists are looking into subjects that once were classed as far-fetched or not measurable. Becuase with this forsight and effort - they soon will be, of this, I'm sure.

i think that it is a shame (in general not personally) that he doesnt like talking to people that can't back things up with maths, If he got the oppertunity to speak with an old Tibetan Buddhist master or someone like Chee Soo, would he still class them as crack-pots for not backing up their thoeries with hard maths. Then again, perhaps he has no time for this sort of thing when he is trying to focus on translating these complex theories via maths so one day science can measure an a observe. Which is no small feet, and perhaps even harder.

Again, this reflects some of the thinking of JAW. JAW uses the terminology of "BIT from IT, and IT from BIT". The BIT is the physical entity of our physical universe while the IT is the aphysical consciousness. The "reality" that we observe can NOT exist without BOTH BIT and IT. It is a mutually symbiotic relationship. Consciousness created the physical universe for the purpose of physical observations, so consciousness could "comprehend itself".

Ah yes, Thanks for breaking that down again, I see what you are saying. Very good analogy. I may even use that one myself sometime /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif!!

I understand what you are saying, and agree in general. But let me clarify one minor error: A hologram is much more than just an "interpretation" of information. Rather, a hologram is actually a PROJECTION of information across a given dimensional boundary. The best example is the physical thing we typically associated with a hologram: Those two-dimensional etchings (usually in crystal or glass) that are perceived as a 3-dimensional object. In this case the hologram is perceived as information in 3-D when in actuality is only exists in 2-D. But now raise the dimensional numbers by one in each case and apply it to our universe:

Ok, I think in fact i took what you meant originally as something different, and went off on my own thing (which i tend to do a lot :eek:). When i say interpretation, What i was eluding to, was the nature of the 'non-physical' universe becoming less of what we would class as 'physical' as we hit the sub-quantum level. That the 'Hologram' Is an interpretation - of the percievable manifestation of information - we see. i.e. A baby sees mass/ energy rather then a conscious interpretation (as an adult would see) which would lead to an specific object like a glass, or table etc. When i thought hologram, I was thinking of the non solid '3D' light projection kind. I see what you were trying to saying now though, yes.

Its interesting that you say this though and the subject of remote viewers crops up. There is an interesting exercise that they do, to display that although we consider ourselves living in the 3rd dimension (which we do) however, we really only 'see' in 2D. I wont go into it as it takes to long to explain. It very much works how you have described with your hologram description - something appears 3D, but in fact you with a shift in consciousness, you can see it is not. The 3D depth you assign to it, is more of a trick of the conscious (or a higher dimension).

I suspect you could very much keep raising the dimesnional numbers by one, in that analogy, 1-0 2-1 3-2 4-3 5-4 6-5.....the perception of the lesser number always needs a bases or link to [at least] the one above it.

What we must now come to understand is how Mind couples to Massive SpaceTime, and how we can use the principles of Harmonic Resonance between these two elements to achieve "miracles" (i.e. technologies which were previously branded as "miracles" in spiritual texts).

Yes i'm glad you say this. And is something that orthodox religion will have a big problem with in the coming future. As you say science now has a very good grasp on harmonic resonance and within the next 70-100 years (depending on certain factors) many of what people classed as "saintly miracles", Will infact be exposed as what they originally were at the time; unexplainable science, only now, explained and observable. Not to mention subsequently accessible to all via technology. I have no doubt that those with the funding are already at this point

Again when consciousness is fused with such technology - the now "wildly impossilbe even in science fiction", will become a future generation's norm. I've spoken to many people that do not share the same view as me, some considered by others as far, far above me in terms of 'wisdom' and 'understanding'. But personally I feel that science it a key that will lead many to certain doors and open it for them (its the decision and task of stepping through them that is down to the individual). Some dont need to be led there, and already have thier own version of the key. But most of us can't claim this, And science will be an integral part of helping us.

The average man has (LITERALLY) a very narrow view of what "life" is. And by literally, I continually refer one to examine just how NARROW is the band of frequencies that we humans can detect vibrations (oscillations)! Our auditory frequency response band (frequencies we can hear) is VERY narrow in the entire electromagnetic spectrum, and our spectral frequency respond band (frequencies we can see visible light) are also VERY narrow. Any entity in the universe that can ONLY express its "life" and "intelligence" far outside the bands we can perceive are going to (erroneously) be branded by us as "not alive". My, what an egocentric view we have developed as "enlightened" humans!

I dont think there is anything else to add, that can make that paragraph any more truthful.

Kind regards,
Olly

 

[RainmanTime]

TTA,

I hope you don't mind if I interject and make a few comments, I know you were addressing Olly, so please pardon my rudeness for butting in.

Freedom of speech. I don't mind, as long as you don't mind any replies.

I won't go into the details of my past, but in the Co$ (Church of $cientology) they have this concept called: MEST (Mass, Energy, Space & Time). Much of what is described technically & mathematically in the scientific findings of others, is also conveyed by the Co$ through a simple rudimentary means of cartoon drawings, clay expressed postulates, and philosophical lectures by LRH.

Yeah, well he was pretty close, I'll have to give ole Ron that! I made it that far thru "the training" as well (in fact, if I recall correctly they used the words MATTER, Energy, Space, and Time for MEST).

The only "problem" was that Ron was a bit of a pseudo-scientist. As I said, he was CLOSE. But the problem is that "Energy" is a composite measure of Mass, Space, and Time. Standard dimensional analysis (a freshman-level science/engineering concept) shows this to be true. This was what first "drew" me to investigate CoS. But the "problems" came about when I saw that it was based LOOSELY on some real science, but as I have described here...incomplete science. In fact, I think if Ron were still "with us" he would see that my explanations of the hierarchical/embedded relationships of Force/Momentum, Energy, & Information are quite correct, and quickly add them to the "LRH Tech". /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Furthermore, from what I’ve gathered on the internet, some of these practices and training exercises to reach this level that the Co$ claims & charges an arm and a leg for, can also be found through the defectors of this sect, called the Freezone, for FREE!

Some bold folks, I must say, given CoS' tendency to sue anything that so much as speaks LRH's words on an open forum (looks over his shoulder to see if anyone is watching!). More power to them, but I still believe the methods of CoS (while path A may work for one, there are other valid paths) are on somewhat tenuous ground, and definitely based on incomplete science.

The "kicker" for me was when I came to learn that LRH studied Qabalah under Crowley along with rocketman Jack Parsons (of JPL fame) in the years prior to his formulation of Scientology and Dianetics. Knowing this, and knowing Qabalah, one can see where a LOT of his ideas came from for Scientology. The fact that NOWHERE does he even MENTION Qabalah, introduce the Tree Of Life as the real source of "The Bridge", nor give his mentor Crowley ANY credit was enough to let me know he was a crook, and that his "religion" is mostly a cash sham.

And that doesn't mean I am sticking up for The Golden Dawn either! They have their "problems" too, one of which is too much of a focus on theatrics and mystics, without enough focus on applying their knowledge to where science it taking us.

Just my 2 cents.

Mine too.
RMT

 

[TTA_01]

Hey RMT,

Freedom of speech. I don't mind, as long as you don't mind any replies.

Nope, I don’t mind your replies. I think we are behind those days.

Some bold folks, I must say, given Co$ tendency to sue anything that so much as speaks LRH's words on an open forum (looks over his shoulder to see if anyone is watching!).

Yes, bold indeed. And while they use the courts as a scare tactic against their critics, and their featured celebrities speak out radically on live television about psychiatry, they are inevitably gaining more bad publicity, if exposure of their tainted past of deception hasn't already done so, IMO.

Subsidiaries of Co$, like "The Way to Happiness" and church volunteer ministries are the kinder gentler spoke people in the church today, and do some processing and community assisting for free. However, dissemination plays a very major role in the churches recruitment of followers for profits. Sometimes infiltrating the population of the inner cities and exploiting them, selling them books and handing out "free" personality tests, and relentlessly urging them to sign up for courses once they have taken the bait. Attainment for “Total Freedom” should not have to cost you what their going rate is, especially if their goal is to clear an entire planet (IMHO). The FSM (Field Staff Member) was one long course, not to mention a waste of my time, ultimately.

The "kicker" for me was when I came to learn that LRH studied Qabalah under Crowley along with rocketman Jack Parsons (of JPL fame) in the years prior to his formulation of Scientology and Dianetics. Knowing this, and knowing Qabalah, one can see where a LOT of his ideas came from for Scientology. The fact that NOWHERE does he even MENTION Qabalah, introduce the Tree Of Life as the real source of "The Bridge", nor give his mentor Crowley ANY credit was enough to let me know he was a crook, and that his "religion" is mostly a cash sham.

Though his church, followers and publications revere him as a self-taught "Jack of all Trades," his collaborations with others prior to the formulation of his church is not readily mentioned nor cited, and known by many on the inside of Co$. However, government conspiracies and other paranoid delusions in his development of the Co$ is mentioned and cited quite readily.

TTA

 

[norn_iron]

i got a question about scientology and u's seem 2 kno a bit more than me.
whats the craic with having to PAY to find out things about their church? i thought that was a cult.
is it tru about the whole "aliens where frozen millions of years ago and left on earth" thing?
and you mention they like to sue people for talking about their religion, under some type of copyright law, but surely this only says they have something to hide. imagine if the bible wher copyrighted and u could only obtain a copy after going to confession a few hundred times at the cost of £300 a go.

digression i know...tend to do it alot but i didnt want 2 start another thread 2 ask

 

[RainmanTime]

i think that it is a shame (in general not personally) that he doesnt like talking to people that can't back things up with maths, If he got the oppertunity to speak with an old Tibetan Buddhist master or someone like Chee Soo, would he still class them as crack-pots for not backing up their thoeries with hard maths. Then again, perhaps he has no time for this sort of thing when he is trying to focus on translating these complex theories via maths so one day science can measure an a observe. Which is no small feet, and perhaps even harder.

You hit the nail on the head. Jack is not the type of physicist who locks him self away, and all you see are his papers. He lives & breathes his research on the net. Thus, you can imagine just how many pseudo-scientific crackpots come his way and send him EMAILs. In order to keep his focus, he has HAD to adopt a high standard of evidence in order to weed those people out. It is a bit like my approach to the endless string of TT claimaints we have here. If you cannot even provide a REASONABLE amount of evidence that follows scientific (falsifiable) principles, then you are a hoaxer... end of story. And the more they protest without reasonable scientific evidence, the more nasty I will certainly get. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Again when consciousness is fused with such technology - the now "wildly impossilbe even in science fiction", will become a future generation's norm. I've spoken to many people that do not share the same view as me, some considered by others as far, far above me in terms of 'wisdom' and 'understanding'. But personally I feel that science it a key that will lead many to certain doors and open it for them (its the decision and task of stepping through them that is down to the individual).

I completely agree, Olly. And while I think I know TTA's take on this, it will be interesting to see his upcoming thread where we discuss technology advancement and choices (both personal and societal).

RMT

 

[TTA_01]

I think you know more about Co$, than you give your self-credit for Norny. Check out this guys site, www.xenu.net, lots of great anti-Co$ info to get you started on.

whats the craic with having to PAY to find out things about their church? i thought that was a cult.
is it tru about the whole "aliens where frozen millions of years ago and left on earth" thing?

Yes, and it's considered "sacred knowledge." And I think Southpark did a fine job at showing how sacred it was too, IMO /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

and you mention they like to sue people for talking about their religion, under some type of copyright law, but surely this only says they have something to hide.

Suing people is a common practice for the church. I think LRH’s way of dealing with it’s critics was a bit more devious and sly, than they are today. For example: his ex-wife once broke into a Federal building in an attempt to destroy evidence of the organizations tax aversion; and LRH’s letter writing to government officials on who he suspected were commies. Sorta like what Cipher tried to do with the TTA

.

Today, they sue on copyright infringement. The RTC (Religious Technology Center) who holds these rights, spins it and justifies it as "protecting the public from misapplication of the technology." To me, that's BS.

imagine if the bible wher copyrighted and u could only obtain a copy after going to confession a few hundred times at the cost of £300 a go.

Well some traditional catholic churches have exorcisms that they perform for lots of $$$, probably for alot more than the Co$ charges for just basic training in handling one’s own demons.

RMT,
I see your building the hype to be more then what the thread may actually be. Though I doubt it will reach 20 pages as I would like it to, but I’ll give it my best shot. You’re obviously a lot more versed in science and philosophy then I am RMT, for that I give you my sincerest props (respect). It should be interesting to see though, how well I fair.

TTA

 

[OllyB]

The only "problem" was that Ron was a bit of a pseudo-scientist. As I said, he was CLOSE. But the problem is that "Energy" is a composite measure of Mass, Space, and Time.

Surely many people within the organisation will have been confused about this. When TA mentioned it, I was wondering why Energy was put in there with the other 3, when it doesn't need to be?

And that doesn't mean I am sticking up for The Golden Dawn either! They have their "problems" too, one of which is too much of a focus on theatrics and mystics, without enough focus on applying their knowledge to where science it taking us.

Certainly. And if they removed it, they'd probably excel far quicker. The theatrics, do not represent anything unless the participants by into it. Most of them don't - they just put up with it.

 

[Scannell]

LOL, Hot dam!! Now were getting a good taste at how the “thinker” in Javier works. His interest is like a magnet to $ scams like this. He clearly studies these scenarios only to replicate them for himself with the Titor story and to MAKE A QUICK BUCK!!

And as we can also see that he clearly understands the sycophant legal aspects to such things as well...

Carry on Javier!!

 

[TTA_01]

The TTA looks at your avatar, and thinks to himself: BANG-BANG :D.

Blazing Gun's and Saddles again, ehh Scannell?

TTA