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Kris

Temporal Novice
So ... so what... bunch of information accumulating, twisting and 'GROWING'. What is the point of having proof, having the answer and being right? Is that not somehow related to greed and stupidity? What will you have accomplished for the people who believed it, wanted to believe it, and even the people who will never believe it? What do you care?

We just keep hearing the same ‘tune’ and know it won’t stop. It’s a shame it can’t but at the same time, good for everyone. Maybe there are too many people trying to find the truth now when the truth that matters is right in front of us out in the world around us. The Titor story will die. What matters are the people it touched during its brief moment here in history.

I remember a 13 year old asking for help who was scared by the world around them. I remember there were people there to help. That’s a very important thing, love, and I don’t see anyone feeling the need to debate and provide proof. Maybe, if anything, the most important thing that the story teaches us is how love can be lost. Trying to prove one way or another the authenticity, has nothing to do with the wisdom. Are you going to peruse the bible next?

17 January 2001 11:29
In the future, sociologists spend a great of time discussing the collective mentality before the war that led to the demise of "Homo Materia". Many of them point to an experiment that was done in the 1970's or 1980's. The experiment isolated various sizes of rat populations in varying cage sizes with varying food and cleaning schedules. It was discovered that no matter what, there was a certain ratio of rats to space that once overtaken by population would always lead to aggressive and destructive behavior in the rats until enough of them had died or been killed to get back under the ratio. This was true even when the rats that were given plenty of food and had their cage cleaned every day.
Besides the occasional school or office shooting and violent video game, I can't help but think about that experiment every time I see someone stranded on the highway or walking on the side of the road carrying an empty gas can. I ask my parents why we don't stop and help and they tell me they are afraid of being attacked and of the possible consequences of helping someone they don't know. I would respond by pointing out that it's our duty to help someone, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because we can never know that person's true worth and the risk of losing then is too great.
I didn't fully understand their stubbornness until I saw a news story about a doctor who was sued for applying emergency first aid to an accident victim who died. I believe your society is biologically geared for self-destruction. However, I feel strongly that does not excuse me from my responsibilities as a temporary member of this community.
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http://www.earthstation1.com/History/Vietnam/AFVNBlooper-TheSoundOfEverything.mp3
 
Hi Kris:

I remember a 13 year old asking for help who was scared by the world around them. I remember there were people there to help. That’s a very important thing, love, and I don’t see anyone feeling the need to debate and provide proof. Maybe, if anything, the most important thing that the story teaches us is how love can be lost.
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A very important point. Being there for people who need you. Giving of yourself, and your knowledge, and your energy, and the energy you can create.

The energy you give to another, in whatever form, is the energy that is amplified and given back to you later, when you need it.

This is how we create our future. One creates a positive future by expending LOVE in the manner/matter and means by which their Free Will directs them.

Create in Peace,
RainmanTime
 
We should help each other, to make the world a better place. Unfortunately we will become overcrowded and I think we would need to thin the population out. I think we are genetically predisposed to destroy each other to allow the species to continue in harmony. Apologies for sounding extreme, but I don't think we allow our conflicts to continue long enough anymore to establish a pleasant harmony in society.

Thoughts?

The Doctor
 
But who decides which species gets eredicated. Besides, the idea sounds very creepy to me. I don't like to make false references, but I can think of one or two people in history who shared the same idea.
 
But who decides which species gets eredicated. Besides, the idea sounds very creepy to me.
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Yeah, it may sound creepy... but then again, who is to say that it is an entire "species" that gets eradicated? Perhaps it is more similar to what Darwin suggests. And I do think TheDoctor is onto something when she/he says:

Unfortunately we will become overcrowded and I think we would need to thin the population out. I think we are genetically predisposed to destroy each other to allow the species to continue in harmony.
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Perhaps oddly enough...or perhaps not so odd... are the findings of what rats do to each other (kill) when they are packed-into living under certain densities of rats per cubic feet. It supports exactly what you say, The Doctor. But there have always been catastrophes in human history that have culled the number of people in existence at any time.

And then there is the death penalty... I must honestly admit that I am not against it, especially in those cases where one human has been shown to have killed many other humans.

The other option is for humanity to increase the volume of its existence. This is the purpose of makind's wishing to travel to the stars...to expand. If we can relieve the population burden of the planet by moving off of it, this would reduce the "rats per cubic foot" death rate trend that is evident from our studies.

??? Solutions?
Kind Regards,
RainmanTime
 
I am by no means a supporter of genocide, but unless we do start colonising, Earth is in for some serious problems. That worries me. As the population increases so does paranoia and negativity. Its all there for us to see. It's evidenced in our history. Just look at the community spirit after all the major wars when the population was reduced. Racism wasn't a problem after the 2nd world war in England until the population started to increase. There were fewer jobs for the "new born" and so the paranoia began, then the anti-locution, then the physical violence. Extermination is an inevitable consequence. As all of us rats increase in our little box, the bigger rats will turn on the smaller rats, the strong will turn on the weak. It is, as mentioned before, natural selection. Civilisation as we call it makes us think that it is no longer necessary, but it is an innate part of us.

Someone, or many of us, need to take notice of this.
 
I am by no means a supporter of genocide, but unless we do start colonising, Earth is in for some serious problems.
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The Doctor makes a good point! And while I know there are plenty of people who don't like Bush, and I am not a blanket endorser of republican philosophies, there are two very important "reasons why" behind Bush's new space exploration initiative. The capitalistic reason is simple, as Apollo showed us... we learn new things, develop new technologies, and this grows our economy.

The second reason is the reason we speak of here, and when you get down to it, it is both a social AND humanitarian reason...as much as Bush-haters would not want to admit that anything he extolls could be humanitarian.

The concept of "Manifest Destiny", while initially attached to American values, is actually not aligned with any specific religious, nationalistic, nor political scheme. It is the innate tendency of man to "want to know what is out there"....to explore, and learn, and yes, to INTEGRATE (there's that word again!) ourselves with what IS "out there".

Unless you are one of those people content to live in your hole in the ground, remain ignorant of new things to learn in our universe, and are willing to follow someone else's dogma on nothing but blind faith, then you probably want to explore what is "out there".

Kind Regards,
RainmanTime
 
Re: Education

Friends of EarthTR125.0121

Yes your points all seem valid to me, however the impending doom that is being foreshadowed here might come to be much sooner than the moment we would be able to reach other planets and support life there. Nonetheless the problem is here and we must all learn to deal with it. Yes there are plenty of bad things taking place every five seconds around this little sphere of water and rock and we must do something. What that something is? I wouldn't dare to say that I know, nonetheless Iit had occured to me that if we begin a true educational reform where not only the basic academic classes are offered but also we would instruct our little ones with classes in human values, philosophies and non-sectarian spirituality we would be setting the foundation for a better world. Once this has been done, we would then be ready to engage into a more profound understanding of the human being, tolerance towards one antother and unconditional love towards everything.

After this we would certainly be in the way towards racial enlightenment. With this we would no doubt stop over population, violence and most crimes. It has happened in other world less advanced as this one, we can make it happen here. But we need to ...well I'll say it this way:

...along time ago there was a group of people following a teacher of life and they asked him that they wanted him to be their leader so that they could help to free them from the foulness of their actual leaders. He told them that he wouldn't that he was a man of love, liberty and life and they all left. Only one man stood besides the teacher of life and he asked him why had the others deserted him and he told him that they were not ready for the true responsibility that came about love, liberty and life. The man thought about it for a second and soon left after the others leaving the teacher behind. After that...

Until later becomes now.
 
our population density is no where neat that of china's. Matter of fact, the majority of the usa/canada/brazil/etce/etc is unpopulated, and could very well BE populated. the thing that is going to kill our planet is using up our resources and polution.
 
Jayson,

Think about what is using up those resources and causing that pollution.

Then think about what will cause those resources to be used up even more quickly, and generate more pollution.

But it's okay. Your solution is to cut down the vast forests in Canada and Brazil, thereby increasing the Greenhouse effect, build more cities that will plunder the natural resources further because over-population won't destroy the human race.

Think Jayson, think!

The Doctor
 
because we are to ignorant now to live with the planet, rather than off of it is not my fault. We dont need to be polluting in any amount near what we are doing now. We pollute because its cheaper to do it that way. How about you think a little. It is very possible for man to live with respect for the land, and still make our many technological advances. Its not in corporations best (immediate)interest to do so though.
 
Explain to me how the human race could populate areas like Canada, Brazil, etc without causing pollution and plundering resources. It can't be done. You are quick to blame corporations and industry and their capitalist approach, but it wasn't capitalists who cut the first trees down to build homes. It was early man.

You do have good intentions. I would prefer not to leave Earth, but if population control is not exercised then there is little left for the human race to look forward to. As our lives become more and more threatened, human beings will become more selfish and aggressive. They will not be willing to embrace "green" methods of survival when they can pay for their survival in the comfort of technology.

Think about it, you know it makes sense.

The Doctor
 
There is nothing wrong with logging, done properly it has minimal long term impact on the enviroment, yes im talking about clear cutting. Did you know that a young growing tree converts a lot more co2 into oxygen than a huge (and old) tree? And activists figure saving the old growth is really important. The wild life will relocate. There is a science to logging that most people dont realize, and you cant even compare how it is done today, to how it was done 100 years ago. I have worked in a logging camp, every site they logged had tree buffers for fish bearing streams. The trees were all spotted for eagle nests and the such, those trees were left uncut. The next season each area logged was replanted and reseaded. The silt in streams and run off was managed well. I could go on, but there are so many things taken into account these days. They dont log a whole mountain and leave it to rot any longer. (at least not where i live) The problem is factories dumping mass amounts of pollutants into the air, the un believeable number of internal combustion vehciles in the world, things of that sort. The slash and burn aproach in brazil and other parts of the world that deplete the soil of nutrients and the land of any recouperative abilities. Like i said, there are ways to do it right. I will continue to blame myself as a human, and coroprations for this, but it is avoidable to a large degree. You are right of course, in some ways, but there are some sides to the story many people do not know. They speculate all they want about the matter without ever knowing. Im not going to argue about it, but i am certain there is a way for the people in the world to live a much more respectable life. The only real problem with it, is human nature.
 
if all people were dead, the world would be a much better place as a whole. heh. but we can deffinatly try to minimize our impact.
 
every one here makes good points about pollution and over crowding. Do you think that the gov't and the scientists don't already know and are working on a solution. I know i have been seeing more and more fuel efficant cars on the road and or they are electric/solar. This is a good step we are going in. As far as buildings go, hacking / slashing the environment just doesn't seem to be very productive in our persuit for a cleaner envorinment. I say we dig up all our old trash or recall it from other countries. Scrap it all and turn it in to new building materials or in to furniture. I can see ppl also using bio genetic trees to build along with. Like in star wars and the ewoks of endor.(that was so you could visualize what I'm talking about.) As far as living so close together. the Japanese and chinese/koreans have been doing it a lot longer then we have. They have come to accept what happens to them there. I know the japanese in partiuclar still pray to forest spirits and try to take care of the little amount forest and land that they have. As far as china goes not sure never been there yet. If any thing we as americans love our space and now adays don't care what is going on next door as long as it doesn't involve us. We have adapted to the wider spaces of our country in which we can move to any of the 50 states with no penalty. In japan if you are trying to move from one area to the next, they require a large amount of paper work and a fee for you moving. Not to mention they charge you for the paper work to. On top of that they can cram about 8 ppl in a room that was ment for one american and they have no problems with the space. All there housing seems to be almost paper thin and use space heaters to warm the house. Well I have lingered here to long. I have to do some thing a bit more productive. Will post at a later date. Like tomorrow.
 
First off, I'm a long time lurker but this is my first post, I couldn't help jumping in to this one. I have really enjoyed reading the debates that you guys have, I would love to sit down, have a beer with a bunch of you and debate.

Anyway, this thread reminds me of a presentation that I saw by Dr. David Suzuki about these issues. He stated that the way things are going right now, that in the next 10 to 20 years there will be a massive dying off of people (whether by war, starvation, disease, etc.). There is no other alternative, it has to happen, we do not have the means to support the growing population. Furthermore our entire way of life is not condusive to survival on this planet, if we don't change everything about how we live now, humans are greatly decreasing their chances of survival. I don't believe that these warnings will be heeded by the people that really count, the rich 10% of the world that is consuming 90% of the earths resources. Would you or I give up all of our luxuries so that the human race can survive (car, house, wealth, etc.), not likely.

Another example he gave was very interesting, if you had a petri dish with an organism (just an example, I don't know what it is) that doubled in size every day (exponential growth, like humans), and at 50 days the dish is full, and all the organisms will die because there is no room, on day 49 the dish is half full! If you put an empty dish beside the full one, (i.e. a new planet), how much extra time have you bought the species. One more day!

I think that the quote of JT "there will be a time when you realize that the world you once lived in is no more" (not sure if that is exactly right) is going to happen regardless if he was a fake or not!

Just my 2 cents

Rhudey
 
Mankind, like every other species on this planet, is able to adapt to our environment. What separates us from the rest of the life on this planet is the fact that not only do we adapt, we change the environment (drastically) to first suit our needs... then we change it to suit our luxuries.

Mankind is a very dangerous animal. We never get tired and are never content. When it comes to invention and using our tools, we are very smart... but we are also extremely careless during that pursuit (Einstein, Nukes).

Here's the problem. Once we become dependent on the systems we once controlled, then the question becomes 'who is in control'. That's why wars are fought. Over population IS the cause and typically people will revolt and blame those in charge or the system while the larger percentage will simply adapt just like in Japan. Over there they have no other choice but to live in a shoe box and cram into a subway train. That’s their environment.

Insuring control over resources and providing room for growth will maintain the present trend for forward progress and pursuit of luxuries and will shift with the needs and desires of the population (depending on how strong that call for action is by said population) and will do so harmoniously as we the people dance around that truth everyday and blame the system (we created) for not being able to keep up with us in the strive for more.

Don't get me wrong... this is a good thing. It keeps the balance and strive going. I don't like the doom and gloom attitude. We have responsibilities and you can either adapt to your environment, change it, move to a new environment or die.

The path (provided we can subdue the crazies in power) will lead us (the human race) to survival and we will spread among the stars. Think about that. We are still babies. When we move out into space we will have to learn all over again which is what Clark was trying to convey in 2001: A space odyssey. Remember when Hal (our really neto system/tool) tried to kill Dave (humanity) because we were no longer in control (of that system; we depended on it). Remember the simple tool that Dave used to survive (screwdriver)? That's all it is. If it wasn’t for that then Dave would never have been able to meet the next challenge: His evolution and rebirth among the stars.

In conclusion, mankind is in perfect harmony with the nature of our universe but we are constantly balancing by striving between emotion and logic in the changing environment. It’s a binary choice. What doesn’t kill us only makes us stronger.

http://www.kubrick2001.com/2001.html


BTW, sound familiar ??? : http://www.normanspencer.co.nz/PredictionScience/SocialImplications.html
 
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