California Fire .vs. New Orleans - Katrina

TheCigSmokingMan

TheCigSmokingMan

Rift Surfer
Its sad sometimes when the U.S. Government is so obvious about things...

San Diego, California burns down and the Government springs in to action with all the co-ordination necessary to save lives and property if possible.

As for New Orleans, they let people drown, starve, be eaten by alligators, die in "Mad Max" shelters and stranded for days!...



Very Very Sad,

TheCigMAn
 
Nick \"The Plumber\" IaDanza - And The N-Word

At the HELPFUL fixing of the 'McMoangle' Home by THE CITY OF BAYONNE.

Nick IaDanza and others are studying and fixing the house.

The Katrina Diseaster of New Orleans is on the TV.

Nick IaDanza says "I guess the N-Word's are going to drown..."

'McMonagle' says nothing.

At another time shortly after, Nick IaDanza complains "my son is rooming with a N-Word" at college.

'McMonagle' says "Maybe the black guy will help your son get laid"... In college.

IaDanza responds "That's a good one... Can I use it?"...

'McMonagle' says sure...

'McMonagle' doesn't really like RACIST MORONS like Nick IaDanza.



TheCigMan
 
I knew it was only a matter of TIME before you made this useless comparison, Ciggy.

1) The natures of the disasters are incomparable. You can see fires coming, yet no one could "see" a levy breaking.
2) Floods have a nasty habit of submerging roads (i.e. escape routes) and hurricanes have a habit of destroying even domed stadiums. Roads were not "drowned" by fires here, and the Qualcomm stadium was not ravaged by anything, such that it maintained it ability to keep people safe.
3) One state run by incompetent Dems who just wanna blame the Feds, another state run by a Rep Governator who actually does something other than laying blame at the Fed's feet.
4) And the biggest difference... this later disaster had benefited by learning from all the mistakes of the last one. That, in and of itself, makes trying to compare the two futile.

But it's always in your interest to create a controversy where none exists... I know... it's your MO.

RMT
 
RMT,

I would agree with point No. 4 with you... That the response effort has improved...

4) And the biggest difference... this later disaster had benefited by learning from all the mistakes of the last one. That, in and of itself, makes trying to compare the two futile.

But to see and what people DIE on NATIONAL TV with reporter and news anchor CALLING OUT for help is a travesty beyond comprehension.

Why do we have ALL THESE National Guard Units and HELICOPTERS!

You are telling me that those 2 ROTOR transport ARMY CH-46 TYPE HELICOPTERS aren't on U.S. Soil? for emergencies?

Not to mention the V22-Ospreys that are primarily in the United States.

It took a ROGUE LIKE TAKE CHARGE LOUISANA GENERAL to put the RESCUE EFFORT together...

I don't think you can blame just THE DEMS... It more of a REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT who you may remember was DEBRIEFED via TELECONFERENCE on the STATE OF EMERGENCY the NIGHT BEFORE.



One "Independant" Americans Opinion,

TheCigMan
 
But to see and what people DIE on NATIONAL TV with reporter and news anchor CALLING OUT for help is a travesty beyond comprehension.
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Darwinism is not always pretty in how it thins the herd, is it? People were told to leave before the storm hit. This time when people were told to evacuate the fires... they listened. God setup the universe in such a way. So if you want to complain, take it to The Man Himself! :)

Not to mention the V22-Ospreys that are primarily in the United States.
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You have not done your homework on aerospace vehicles and what "operational status" means. You might wish to research precisely when the V-22 became officially sanctioned for MILITARY operations and compare it to the date of Katrina. And then realize that to be used in civilian capacities, the FAA has something to say about it. As a guy who knows aerodynamics quite well, let me just say that I will never personally fly on any helicopter, and that the V-22's hover/landing dynamics are nothing short of scary if it is in the hands of an inexperienced pilot! My knowledgeable prediction is that the FAA will NEVER certify a configuration like the V-22 for civilian, passenger operations. You can take that to your Chase Manhattan Bank! ;)

I don't think you can blame just THE DEMS... It more of a REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT who you may remember was DEBRIEFED via TELECONFERENCE on the STATE OF EMERGENCY the NIGHT BEFORE.
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If you will note, I was not "blaming just the DEMS". I was drawing a comparison of how the STATE governments acted (or did not act, as the case may be). I was not bringing in the feds at all. But that is certainly one difference between the general thought processes of "classic" DEMS vs "classics" REPUBS. One always thinks it is the Federal government's job to fix anything, even those things resulting from their own poor judgment. Whereas the other realizes that "God helps those who help themselves".

RMT
 
RMT,

As for "God setup the universe in such a way. So if you want to complain, take it to The Man Himself! :)"

I believe he has REAL TIME MONITORING of the HUMAN THOUGHT PROCESS so I think he is aware of your opinion. :)

Also, I believe the residents of New Orleans were TOLD BY FORECASTERS that the storm would HIT TO THE EAST of the city.


As for V-22 Osprey's, you can QUOTE REGULATIONS all day... In a state of emergency, I DON'T THINK THE FAA HAS JURISDICTION on planes. Remember, "9/11"?


As for "If you will note, I was not "blaming just the DEMS"." I believe as they say in the HOOD. "Are Busted"... Mr. RainmanTime. Anyone reading that paragraph would probably agree you were pointing blame at the DEMOCRATS. I believe in DEBATING RULES... I have "defeated you..." :)

Which brings another point of inquiry? Do you have trouble admitting when your wrong?



Interesting,

TheCigMan
 
Also, I believe the residents of New Orleans were TOLD BY FORECASTERS that the storm would HIT TO THE EAST of the city.
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Question to CigMan: If you were being told to evacuate the city, would you ignore that order and just BLAME the forecasters for giving you bad information? We see how much you enjoy the BLAME GAME. Here are the FACTS:

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/08/mayor-orders-new-orleans-evacuated.php

"Mayor Ray Nagin ordered the entire US city of New Orleans (population 484,674) evacuated Sunday in advance of the anticipated Gulf Coast landfall Monday morning of Hurricane Katrina [Wikipedia backgrounder], currently described by the National Weather Service as a "potentially catastrophic" Category-5 storm packing winds of nearly 175 miles per hour [NWS advisory; NWS Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale backgrounder]. New Orleans has long been considered vulnerable to hurricanes [Weather Channel backgrounder] and major storms because it's an average of six feet below sea level, and could be almost completely flooded by a storm surge topping the levees that protect it. The Mayor's mandatory evacuation order, issued through the Civil District Court for the Parish of Orleans, declares:
1. A mandatory evacuation order is hereby called for all of the Parish of Orleans, with only the following exceptions: essential personnel of the United States of America, State of Louisiana and City of New Orleans; essential personnel of regulated utilities and mass transportation services; essential personnel of hospitals and their patients; essential personnel of the media; essential personnel of the Orleans Parish Criminal Sheriff's Office and its inmates and essential personnel of operating hotels and their patrons. Unless covered by one of the aforementioned exceptions, every person is hereby ordered to immediately evacuate the City of New Orleans or, if no other alternative is available, to immediately move to one of the facilities within the City that will be designated as refuges of last resort.

2. In order to effectuate the mandatory evacuation, at the direction of the Mayor, the Chief Administrative Officer, the Director of Homeland Security for the City of New Orleans or any member of the New Orleans Police Department, the City may commandeer any private property, including, but not limited to, buildings that may be designated as refuges of last resort and vehicles that may be used to transport people out the area."

What do you not understand about MANDATORY EVACUATION ORDER? Oh, that's right.... you are CigMan, so you would assume anything "mandatory" coming from a Govmint Official would be a conspiracy to rob you of your freedom!

In a state of emergency, I DON'T THINK THE FAA HAS JURISDICTION on planes
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Your thinking is wrong when it comes to certification of air vehicle airworthiness. Check out CFR Title 14. You really wish to duel with me in my area of expertise? :)

RMT
 
RMT,

I don't know if the local news media broadcasted that ORDER on TV and RADIO in the EFFECTIVE MANNER you assume.

From my news station, they predicted EAST OF THE CITY as well as the HURRICANE CENTER people.

I'm not from New Orleans so I think I have to let this POINT OF DEBATE go aside...


As for "you are CigMan, so you would assume anything "mandatory" coming from a Govmint Official would be a conspiracy to rob you of your freedom!"

Well... YES! I still wonder about THE EMERGENCY BROADCAST signal that hasn't changed 40 years... I wonder about FEMA... I wonder about the REFLECTING STICKERS on the back of HIGHWAY SIGNS... I wonder about SUPPOSED CHINA ARMY UNITS near the U.S. Mexico / Border... I wonder about NAFTA/GATT/CAFTA sending OUR MANUFACTURING overseas... I wonder about that building in THE CAYMAN ISLANDS that has 23,000 or more OFF SHORE CORPORATIONS...

I am worried about the U.S. GOVERNMENT... YES. :) You win that point.


As for "Your thinking is wrong when it comes to certification of air vehicle airworthiness."

RAINMANTIME... I have DECIPHERED your BOARD arguing tactics... You mixed REGULATIONS and MINUTUE in your paragraphs so you CAN RETREAT to "cutting hairs" point to win... :)

I was ABOUT USING V-22 Ospreys NOT THEIR AIR WORTHINESS.



I still think I DEFEATED you :),

TheCigMan
 
I was ABOUT USING V-22 Ospreys NOT THEIR AIR WORTHINESS.



I still think I DEFEATED you :),
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Law is not MINUTIA, CigMan. And you can think all you want, but in order for a vehicle to be USED in Federally-goverened airspace for civlian operations, it MUST be deemed Airworthy by the FAA. The LAW is very clear on this, and I resent you calling my adherence and knowledge of my profession "minutia".

The V-22 was NOT approved for ANY sort of operations at the time of Katrina. Not even MIL ops, much less civilian ops. The V-22 is a non-player in your argument. So you have not won the debate. In your own mind you may feel you have, but I am aware of aviation law. Are you?

RMT
 
You mixed REGULATIONS and MINUTUE in your paragraphs so you CAN RETREAT to "cutting hairs" point to win
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And you are the one talking about "splitting hairs", huh? It would seem that YOU are the one who has trouble admitting when he is wrong. And you are quite wrong about the V-22. Why not just admit it? Here, let me show you how wrong you are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-22_Osprey#Operational_history

"On 8 December 2005, Lieutenant General Amos, commander of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force, accepted the delivery of the first fleet of MV-22s, delivered to HMM-263."

This was a full 3 months AFTER Katrina rescue operations. And one must note that just because a Marine division accepts delivery of an air vehicle does NOT MEAN THAT IT IS APPROVED FOR ANY OPERATIONS (MIL or otherwise).

"The Osprey entered operational service with the Marine Corps in 2007."

Notice how long it took before the Marine Corp declared themselves fit for operations with this aircraft? This exhibits that there is a LOT of training required (rightly so) for such a new and radically different vehicle.

Now, if you would also like to have a technical discussion of why (even if it were available) the V-22 is inappropriate for human rescue operations such as those required of Katrina, I would be happy to explain that to you. The V-22 was never designed to be a "hover and snatch" vehicle which pulls people out of the water or other perilous situations... one need only see the power of the propwash when the V-22 is in hover mode to know why.

Can you admit when you are wrong (and out of your element) CigMan? We shall see.
RMT
 
RainmanTime,


Aviation Law?... Sounds like you work for the FAA. Are you ones of those guys who destroyed the FAA Tower Voice Logs? After "9/11"?

As for "The V-22 is a non-player in your argument."

OK. RainmanTime. You Win :) I guess the V-22's were in a SUPER SECRET BUNKER with the "alien" UFOs like in Arizona's S4 Facility... :)



TheCigMan
 
RMT,

As for "The V-22 was never designed to be a "hover and snatch" vehicle which pulls people out of the water or other perilous situations..."

OHHHH NOOOOO!!!! It was only designed to CARRY TROOPS into IN HOSTILE enviroments like the desert, cities and the mountains!!! :) I think you are reaching on this one...

As for "Can you admit when you are wrong (and out of your element) CigMan? We shall see."

I admit I'm wrong all the time.... Out of my element... I should have NEVER LEFT the SUPER SECRET BUNKER... That's for sure... :) I don't think THE REAL WORLD can handle me... :)

QUESTION: How many people have you apologized to in life?



TheCigMan
 
Aviation Law?... Sounds like you work for the FAA.
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No, but I have had to design automatic pilot systems that COMPLIED with aviation law...which is why I am quite familiar with it. Also having worked at one time as the engineer responsible for all autopilots on all FedEx airplanes makes me very familiar with the operational side of what is allowed in our skies (and what isn't).

Are you ones of those guys who destroyed the FAA Tower Voice Logs? After "9/11"?
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Now who is reaching, CigMan?

OHHHH NOOOOO!!!! It was only designed to CARRY TROOPS into IN HOSTILE enviroments like the desert, cities and the mountains!!! :) I think you are reaching on this one...
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Are you again pretending to be able to compare operational aviation requirements of differing vehicles? Can you show me a single V-22 mission requirement for "hover and snatch"? You cannot because all V-22 operational missions call for the vehicle to LAND to ingress and egress payload (people and/or equipment). I will never cease to challenge your assumptions when they are in an area within which I am well-versed. It becomes even more entertaining when you pretend to be versed in them! :)

QUESTION: How many people have you apologized to in life?
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Each one whom I have wronged. So far, I do not see that I have "wronged" you at all, so if you are fishing for an apology, you are using the wrong bait. :)

RMT
 
OBSERVATION: of RainManTime :)

It appears from my line of questioning and debate:

I have learned 2 important items.

o RainManTime MAY HAVE trouble admitting when he is wrong
o Doubtful he has ever apologized to anyone in his life


If you know "modern psychology", they are very meaningful. :)


I don't know if you go out for a "soda pop" with you... :)


TheCigMan
 
RainManTime,

As for "Can you show me a single V-22 mission requirement for "hover and snatch"? You cannot because all V-22 operational missions call for the vehicle to LAND to ingress and egress payload (people and/or equipment)."

I've seen shows on PBS, Discovery Channel and the History Channel with "Military" personnel taking about the V-22 "operational role" and "mission packages" but hey what do they know! :)

They are only military operational commanders in the U.S. Armed Forces...

I guess they didn't clear it with you before they got interviewed :)



TheCigMan
 
RMT,

What bring 'McMonagle' into it...

I think we'll send him to engineer school along with other 'above average' individuals that the "Shadow Government" watches... :)

And have them apply for Jobs at Northrup Grumman...

I'm sure YOU'LL ENJOY working for him :)


I guess you have conceded defeat. :) What don't you just say "Up your nose with a rubber hose..." as Mr. Barbarino used to say on Welcome Back, Kotter.


TheCigMan
 
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