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Time travel exists for those with true motives.



If time travel exists we must assume that it occurs around us frequently and at will (the will of those with the means and knowledge of it). If we are to become of the class of people that are aware and part of the elite time travelling kind we must first come to terms with the fact that it requires managerial principals to successfully support a reality that includes time travel. If we cannot first display an organized plan of our application of knowledge, such as time travel, those who have successfully interpreted such a phenomenon will not introduce us to it’s reality. To me it becomes obvious that the bible becomes the basic building block for simple people to build principles for living which will make available the means of introduction to higher sources of knowledge. One can study until time’s end (?) and not learn anything if ones purpose for studying is founded in folly.

Thank you all for your interest in this subject. Words to ponder: Miracle, Longevity, Renew and Haven.
You bring up some interesting points:

You suggest that improperly managed time travel could result in chaos, and so it is denied to those who do not have sufficient knowledge of its impact on the world.

I would suggest that given what little we already know about chaos theory, that even the shortest and minimally impacting time travel event could result in massive changes to the historical timeline as time moves forward (or backward?) from the event. This was hinted at in Ray Bradbury's short story about the hunters who go back in time to shoot dinosaurs that are just about to die anyway. One guy gets frightened, jumps off the hovering track and accidentally squishes a single butterfly. When they get back to the future, a fascistic presidential candidate who was about to lose the next election ends up winning. Also, the letter 'c' is replaced by 'k' and other small changes have occured because of the one dead butterfly.

Even though this was only a short story, I believe that Bradbury had it right. If I just flash on in the past for a second and then go back to the present, if someone happened to see me, that could cause a whole bunch of things to happen, especially if the person undergoes a religious conversion because he believed I was a saint, or goes crazy because he believed I was a devil.

Thus I think that if knowledge is a criteria for time travel, then one would need to have COMPLETE knowledge, i.e. one would have to be God. Or at least an angel or other being in communion with God.

The slightest error of judgment could lead to horrible consequences unless every combination and permutation can be calculated and certified.

The Bible may be the complete and inerrant word of God, but unfortunately we are finite beings who cannot fully fathom all that the Bible has to say. That is one of the reasons there are so many schisms and denominations within EVERY religion. There are at least four major variants of Judaism that I am aware of, and at least two versions of Islam (though there seem to be progressive and militant branches of each of those.) So no religion or religious text seems to be clear enough to us finite people to lead to only one set of adherents.

So if you are right, then I imagine that only God and those in communion with him will be allowed to time travel.

In the meantime, although it may sound contradictory, it might be best if each of us did his or her "own thing" so that as time goes forward we will try out all the possible combinations and permutations, and hopefully through some form of cultural evolution we will slowly but surely hit upon the best set of laws/behaviors that we as finite beings can come up with. Even if we never succeed in traveling through time, we will certainly have a happier time as we whiz through space!
Uh oh....

I suppose that it was inevitable that the Bible would get a look in before long.

I recognise the importance of 'faith' and a concept of our 'place' in the universe, as regards to the pursuit of knowledge. I don't personally regard the Bible as some kind of lifestyle guide though.

I was christened, but I don't practice any organised religion. I really don't feel that this limits my development in any way, as I am confident enough in my own personal belief system that I don't feel the necessity to adhere to any other regimented system of theology.

This is my outlook and yours is obviously yours. If it is your choice to 'follow' teachings from the Bible, that is your right and your privilege. My choice however is not to follow the Bible.

I am free to consider my own ideas, my own way of dealing with life and with others and to disagree with whatever opinion that I decide, when I decide. All of this without fear of holy retribution waiting around the next corner.

I find that a healthy balance of pragma and dogma is the best option. To constantly be skeptical(not cynical) and at the same time hopeful...
Gazing at the sky with one foot firmly on the ground and all that..

'Nuff respect going out, peace etc..

(Could be an interesting debate - the role of theology in these matters..)
To a large extent, I agree with your principles. I am puzzled however by two things you say.

1. - "If we cannot first display an organized plan of our application of knowledge, such as time travel, those who have successfully interpreted such a phenomenon will not introduce us to it’s reality."

You seem to be implying here that Time Travel IS a fact that is known to, and practiced by, some entities we may or may not be aware of. What is your source that leads you to imply this? Please understand that if you come back with Biblical Scripture, I will tell you now that what you will be saying will be YOUR INTERPRETATION of said scripture. That's fine, but it can only ever be a judgement call on your part. Do not expect me to accept what YOU say the Bible says out of hand. I consider the Bible, (and indeed many other inspirational writings) to be excellent examples of how we humans can define or interpret what the guidelines are for moral character and behavour. If you choose to believe that those guidelines came from some higher power or God, so be it. I won't argue that point with you. You will not however get me to accept the Bible as a scientific journal or even a truly accurate historical record. It's historical writings are largely metaphorical in nature and never really come to complete agreement of the accounts depending on who was doing the writing down at the time. If you believe God inspired the hands of the men that wrote it, fine. It's obvious He "inspired" each of them differently tho, since the accounts themselves are different with respect to the same events in many cases.

2. You use the word "Miracle" as a "word to ponder". "Miracle" is nothing more than a description for a process that is not understood. I'm certain that Noah, Ezekiel or even Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would have proclaimed a "miracle" if they saw a 747 go by overhead and were told that 385 people were aboard it going 550 miles per hour. It's easy to explain things that we don't understand by saying "God dunnit" but that's actually a cop-out. Science seeks to understand "how" God dunnit without implying the nature of the existence of God, one way or the other. God is for Theology, science is for science. If "God dunnit", OK, but understand that science wants to know HOW He did. If the Big Bang occurred because "God dunnit", then anything that follows is really not that much of a miracle at all compared to that is it.

Re:Re:Time travel exists for those with true motives.

1. What is your source that leads you to imply this?

In my way of thinking it becomes necessary to establish the phenomenon of time travel as an existing scientific practice due to the very nature of the idea. To say that time travel is possible but hasn’t been done yet is something that I cannot support in my own theory. And if it only exists in nature then it indicates to me that it is not possible to harness as a manageable phenomenon (something I am not ready to admit). I might be able to support a theory that states that time travel was always available to those with the knowledge and the means but a haven was created as an escape from the burden of that knowledge and that haven is this universe in which we exist.
To be able to navigate through time (whether it is through physical passage or some sort of signal transference) is, in my opinion, to have the means of preparing a perfect condition. This is something that I don’t think exists anywhere in the known universe for us as human beings. However it may exist for those of some other plane of existence who try (sometimes successfully) to communicate with us in order to give us insights about ourselves and our outcomes that enable us to better negotiate our difficulties with one another. I have to admit that I haven’t an education that supports my thoughts on this subject. These are just thoughts that I’ve developed through simple intrigue.
Thus to my only source of reference (the bible) for an extensive account of a long-lived successful means of learning to negotiate our personal differences as individuals of a similar race. Here again I am limited by what I’ve been exposed to thus far in my life (high school in TX, life in TX & CA, a Christian family that weren’t churchgoers during my childhood). It seems to me that the attempts of religion (at least the Christian religion) are the only concerted attempts to bring peoples of different nations (and notions) together for one common good, a better quality of life.

2. You use the word "Miracle" as a "word to ponder".

Miracle, Longevity, Renew and Haven are just words that came off of the top of my head. They must relate to the subconscious connection I make between Jesus’ application of miraculous events to guide the masses of an era and modern sciences tendency to do the same thing. They are two different approaches to the same means end. Which is to guide the masses to a better way of life. The fact that there are vast movements focused at this suggests, to me, that there is some higher awareness governing our motives.

Other pondering
a.) The law of conservation of energy/momentum. (If I remember right these are two separate laws). Would the introduction of time travel reduce these to postulates at our current learning curve in 1999 AD?
b.) The role of the family structure in the human equation. (Is this created to stabilize lineage? Or maybe an aid to mapping time.)
c.) What could our motives be for studying the possibility of time travel? Conquerous, Inquisitive, Forced (by the creator)or simply Subjective?
Re:Re:Re:Time travel exists for those with true motives.

Well said. You are obviously a person of honesty and integrity. Your candor and humility speak volumes about an individual who has obviously spent much time in self contemplation and is very comfortable with your conclusions and aware of your limitations. I hope I can be thought of as favorably in the eyes of others.

To the # 1 point we are discussing, I would say that I am in agreement with you on this even though we may take 2 different paths to arrive at what seems to be a co-incident end-truth for us both. I am very much a person who subscribes to a personal spiritual and philosophical integrity oriented morality. I've always felt that was the real intent in Christianity, and make my regards to Christians like yourself who see that as the real goal of faith in the first place.

I can't take any issue with your point # 2 either. I could find myself asking the same questions, with the same possible answers.

In your pondering (a), perhaps you refer to the laws of conservation of energy/momemtum and energy/matter as the two. I believe the energy/momentum would be just one 'law'. Whether the introduction of Time Travel would reduce these to postulates or not I couldn't say since I doubt any such transcendance would stem from the implications contained in either. I don't believe the universe has "violations" of it's own laws, just applicable parameters to them that we haven't discoverd yet. For now, I'm a pragmatic dis-believer in the possibility of Time Travel in any "physical" sense. I could be wrong, but this is very much in part due to my inability to concieve of a scenario that does not lead to paradox, and I do not believe the universe has any paradoxes. If it did, it really couldn't exist could it.

For (b), it seems rather logical that the family unit serves as a lineage stabilizing entity as you say. Almost for it's own sake in fact. It certainly does allow us to map time in terms of it's continuity with regards to our own DNA.

As far as our motives in (c), I certainly hope not in terms of Conquerous. It's time we rose above these primitive tendencies and prepared ourselves to take our place among the stars, as well as the future. Inquisitive? To be sure. This seems the most noble reason of all. Forced (by the creator)? I would prefer to exchange the word "inspired" for "forced" if this is indeed the case, but then I'm an optimist, and staunch individualist. Subjective? Perhaps, but that same optimist would prefer to think we are more sophisticated than that.

I certainly thank you for your comments and the time spent reading mine.
Re:Re:Time travel exists for those with true motives.

Yeah, threadwise, we never really have touched on the theological aspects of this have we.

Looks like we might have a good start on one here tho huh. I'm happy to talk about it. (Dialog welcome. "Preaching", don't bother, I sharpened my fangs the other day in Vermont and loaded up on venom, and you know how I HATE to use them!)