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Time does not exist. (Why)

Originally posted in another thread, I think it deserves it's own thread.

Here is the final problem in which you cannot deny :

Time does not exist.

It is an invention of man, the concept of time a creation of our mind. The universe does not know Time and it is undeniably obvious that the universe only 'travels forward in Time'... a series of moments that can never be reproduced because that exact instant is gone once it passes, evaporating into nothingness.

To even consider that Time does exist, you will have to plausibly hypothesize, (because that's all you can do about this subject), "if" and "where" the universe of the past exists, for example, and the form in which it exists, before we can rationally talk about traveling "to" it.

The moment I just spent typing this post has now gone and past. This particular moment may be duplicated if I tried, but will it be the same exact moment I just passed? Did this moment, and all the atoms and matter that surrounded my environment, go somewhere and be suspended in "Time"?

It becomes clear to me that it would indeed have to be in a state of suspension for anyone to be able to travel back to "it" (that moment in time). If not, that moment in itself is going through time and then that moment is now passed there as well. A huge problem now arises : Would you be suspended in time for 'traveling' to it or would your presence make time suddenly start working again?

There is one more possibility in which I am hesitant to mention, but for the purposes of thoroughness, I will casually mention. All moments in your life are being replicated every "second" such as an echo, never-ending. A weak but analogous situation would be a room with 400 television sets, each playing the same movie 1 second apart from each other. If you wanted to, your eyes could go from one television to the next, and the next, in 1 second intervals, and be "suspended" in the same moment until you exhausted all 400 television sets. For purposes of this argument, you would obviously have to mention that the universe is not confined to a definite number of "television sets", but an infinite one. Otherwise, we would have but a short time after a moment has passed to "travel back to it".

Do you see the non-senical situations we must try to explain to make Time exist?

If you respond to this post, please don't quote out of context or be subject to any other logical fallacy,

KnowThyself as of 11:44 AM, Monday, April 26, 2004 <----- That time doesn't really exist now does it? How in the world would you know how to control your time travel? I ask this assuming you already rationally theorized the existence of Time.
I posted this in the other thread then saw this.. I think it'd be better if I stuck to this one and ignored any replies on the other one. Don't want to hijack that other thread. Here's what I posted there:

True, all past moments were experienced as the present. All future moments are experienced as the present.

They are all the present, with future and past being relative concepts from this present.

Why do we find the present so mundane and prefer to run away to visions of the future or memories of the past?
It is an invention of man, the concept of time a creation of our mind.
Yes, so it does exist. Time is something that man invented, so there's no reason whatsoever to believe that our plain, linear, measurable time does not exist. However, perhaps we should explore other ways to look at time. For instance: what will happen when you "freeze time" and "spin it around" in three dimensions.

Another question is, what happens to our past. I think I agree with you on that one...

A weak but analogous situation would be a room with 400 television sets, each playing the same movie 1 second apart from each other.
I like the "400 television sets" theory. I'll make a simple 3d visualization of how I interpret what you describe. Give me some time though. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif


I like your analogy of the 400 TV sets too. /ttiforum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But , would the 400 TV sets be showing the same programme though,?
Or would they show variations on the main theme (if there is a main one), depending on the choices we make?

I am not an expert of time travel and time concepts so please be patient with me!
Time does not exist.
This is awfully absolute, and given that we live in a relativistic universe, I'd say it is therefore a questionable statement. If you are going to make this statement, you will also have to make the absolute statements that "Mass does not exist" and "Space does not exist." And indeed, you could be right if you included these two other statements. Each of these 3 fundamental measures are illusions in that they are incomplete descriptors of the more complete entity known as Energy.

If Time exists as an illusion of our human perception, then it DOES exist in some form. The form that Time exists is as a RELATIONSHIP between Matter and Motion. That relationship is constrained by something, as are all relationships. In this case, the relationship we call Time is constrained by the speed of light, since this is the fastest vibration that is perceivable to the human mind. I have talked before about how the "C-squared" in Einstein's E = mc^2 refers to the surface area of a spherical light bubble. Technically, that light bubble from any event propagates forever. Thus, to "travel back in Time" in a strict sense, you must catch-up to and pass that light bubble. Then, when you stop moving, you will again experience that same event.

What we all need to come to an understanding of is that our human senses are limited, and therefore they deliver a lot of illusions to our minds. The meaningful information in such illusions are the relationships of any one thing/event to any other thing/event. Relationships are the crux of Relativity. And we are just now approaching a scientific understanding of the deeper meanings of relationships....such as Time.

Kind Regards,
Re; Ray' Time goes into realms once you go in distance so far.

This universe may be older than once thought, according to recent articles in both Sci American and Discovery Magazines.

The cipher that you sought, is the acceptance of other civilizations.

Once a society becomes iconoclast in its own linearity, without reaching out, then it's in real trouble.

You paint a pretty good picture in defense of your position, but I have to side with Roel and Rainman in their particular points of view. Case in point:

It has been shown that virtual reality is a dangerous device that can totally skew all of our senses. It takes a period of adjusting to get back to "our" reality. However, in VR, (providing the graphics are good enough) we cannot distinguish between the reality of VR and our own. It is so real that our own senses are deceived and adjust accordingly--right down to the cilia in our inner ear that determines our balance and place among things. Even if we believe that it is not real, it impinges upon our consciousness and our physical reality. If not for this effect, VR would be an everyday device used by virtually (pun intended) everyone. It has been considered too unpredictable for widespread use at the present time although "caves" are being created to study everything from spelunking to sub-atomic theory.

Time seems to have that same effect upon us. Whether we "believe" it exists or not, it still impinges upon our consciousness and physicality. We have an incredibly complex time-sense. If you have difficuly accepting this, try going back to a rotary-dialed telephone. The time it takes to dial a number is aggravatingly long. Or try using an 8086 computer after having a Pentium-class machine. You will become so aggravated that you will want to throw it out a window. This time-sense is built in. It is not a "learned" behavior. That time-sense will wake you up at the exact same time every morning. It is just as real as the gravitational sensing of birds, earthquake sensing of several animals, or sickness sensing of dogs towards their masters--warning of an impending attack of epilepsy or other similar sickness. If time does not exist, then we have a time sense that has no purpose whatsoever. Now you probably have some aversion to the concept of actually and physically visiting another time/place. In that, I would probably tend to agree with you. The paradoxes are just too great to overcome. However, under certain conditions, I can see the possibility of observing the past and visiting the future. Observing the past cannot affect it, and visiting the future can only affect us.
Hypothesize that the only time is the present moment. Everything is in the present moment, including what we call the present and the future. Existing all at once. The experience of time is said as if we are going from "womb to womb".

Thanks for creating those videos Roel! Pictures are worth a thousand words and I tend to understand more through the visual medium.
I don't agree with you. Time does exist. Of course the definition that we give to time, is man made. But time on itself does exist.
Man, saying time doesn't exist is like saying space doesn't exist. We don't know it's exact nature, and all the ins and outs, but space/time exists as assuredly as we all exist.

Of course we all may be an illusion, and there may be a greater reality "outside" of the constraints we live under in the space/time continuum that is our universe. A Deep Realisation (enlightenment?) of these constraints may free us to move outside them, but until an individual makes this leap he or she will be constrained (or choose to be constrained) by the physical laws of the space-time continuum.

If you break out of the space/time continuum, which would involve moving your consciousness into a physicality that is beyond the constraints of space/time, then all space and all time are simultaneously visible (not to the eye, but to the soul's perception), therefore the analogy of tv sets is completely appropriate. In this enhanced state, all of space, all of time, and all possible physical permutations of the universe are visible simultaneously.

Note, breaking outside of the continuum would only be possible if we as beings have some part of us that exists outside of this illusion (the soul?). Otherwise we are nothing more than an "illusion", and will never be able to see the greater reality.
I know why time doesn't exist... because giant monsters eat the past. But I was once caught there, and had to get out before they ate me.

No, wait, that was a movie...
Oh well I guess that means time travel is out after all. Chrono, sorry you have to be fake, because by the year 2522 all this will have been eaten by the langoleers!
This question goes back to the tree in the forest analogy. Inteligent creatures calibrate and then measure time according to there understanding of it's affect. All that happens in a universe happens despite inteligent conciousness and thus time does indeed exist but not neccesarily as we humans describe it. We are limited by debate caused differing points of view which is the very thing that makes time infinite. The tree made a sound and later made a noise from the same fall with billions of descriptions of the noise.
<font color="blue"> [/COLOR] it depends on what you consider time. each person has their own little vision of what they think time is. time for me is something that when its gone its gone forever. time is a measuring device thats all. it will never be more. but im always open minded so if you can convince me otherwise then i will hear you out
It can be considered that time is not merely a device of measure but a facet of reality to be measured by devices.
Time exists without consciousness. A plant knows when to bloom not by looking at a clock or any other measuring device. It has no brain to associate events. Time is a combination of what and where. When a person says it is a certain time they are referring to a snapshot of "the way things are at that moment". Moments occur whether measured by conscious beings or not. Just as we adapt a language to communicate, we adapt reference of measure of time. "When" adds detail to where and is thus a counterpart of where. Time refers to the combination of what and where. All except the year refers in some way to the location to the earth in relation to the sun. The year refers to "what" the event of man's history and the existence of the most influential mystic, Christ.
The word "time" and the words associated with it's calibration are thrown about to mean whatever we want. However what time refers to does indeed exist. Indeed what happens has happened. But consider what has happened, can happen. again differently in due time. Do you believe that the creator has timing? Another nature of time is conditionality (certain things will not happen unless or until). To us, beings of linear existance, things happened, are happening, and will happen. To a non material being of no beginning or end, things only "happen" and a schedule for these things applies only to accomodate things created that require such order. Time exists because there is timing involved with the immense number of delicate events of the universe.