perception

[Guest]

it ocurred to me today,that what we percieve around us is actually what happend a fraction of time ago,due to the delay that our senses experience in processing information,it would follow that your next perception would be a fraction in the past and so on...so what every body sees on a day to day bases is actually a picture of the past...so the next time somebody accuses you of living in the past just say .." ye i guess we are".

 

[Guest]

Q

 

[TimeTravelActivist]

Ahh man... Don't tell me you really believe the nervous systems response is that slow.

Let me tell you something, when I was alot younger in battle, I would see, hear and act all in a second. Or else I would lose my matches. Talk about perfect timing. I was in sync with what my present was telling me I was seeing. I was not living in the past. In fact, I was living in the future. It happened so fast, that I just went fast.

Your explanation about your eyes seeing things a few moments late. I'm sorry, but any biologist will disagree with you on that.

It's at the speed of light that we percieve things to happen. Trust me, I been in many fights to know that

. No body else needs their perception right on time more then a fighter.

Well maybe a Tennis Player too

.

But that was pretty funny though. Delayed vision

hehe. What made you come up with that one?

-Javier C.

<This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 08 August 2000).>

 

[truthguy]

yeah .... thats kinda true, but excatly profound is it ?

------------------
&gt;Truthguy -&gt; Tiocfaidh MO Lá!

 

[Guest]

LEO is correct the optic nerve transmites signals at a fixed rate. This causes a time delay. This delay occurs because the optic nerve use a biochemical process to transmit data in the form of ions. It is not the same as transmiting a signal through a wire!!

 

[Guest]

I think there is a time lapse through any physical medium, including the human brain. But I also think that the human mind can process information it receives instantaneously on a nonphysical level.

 

[Guest]

Through my work in artificial intelligence I am developing a new field of study called DIGITAL INTELLIGENCE. Who's purpose is to develope a digital brain based on an algorithm I am writing. When this brain is turned on it will be as a baby it will use its sense and enviroment to self-program. In time it well become self-aware and we will be force to accept the fact that humans are nothing more then biocomputers. Our own self-awareness, as we will see, is based on the properties of neurons and their interconnections. The ideal that the human brain can process data on a nonphysical level will be shown to be invalid. We are what we are nothing more. A difficult, if not impossible, concept to accept even for myself.
I often feel like Spock as I struggle with the belives in heart and the science in my mind, as I am unable to turn mu back on either.

 

[TimeTravelActivist]

I never thought I had to say this, but some people's thinking on this thread is a tad to wishful thinking and immature.

Biological organisms are not that slow. We experience no delays what's so ever. Just because some of you are in ahhh of the many wonders of the human brain. You think that it's a long process, complex to see with our own eyes. Please...

We don't experience any delays in our vision. It's instantaneous. Let's all get that clear people.

Shhhz...

Come on; let's grow up a little.

-Javier C.

 

[erobertg]

Javier, unless your some kind of eye doctor I do not really think you can say what is, and what isn't. I seriously doubt there isn't atleast some delay...but as I said I cannot say that when I do not have a good background in those areas. Come on Javier, grow up...

 

[Guest]

Transmission of information in the nervous system
Source: Britannica.com

In the nervous systems of animals at all levels of the evolutionary scale, the signals containing information about a particular stimulus are electrical in nature. In the past the nerve fibre and its contents were compared to a metal wire, while the membrane was compared to insulation around the wire. This comparison was erroneous for a number of reasons. First, the charge carriers in nerves are ions, not electrons, and the density of ions in the axon is much less than that of electrons in a metal wire. Second, the membrane of an axon is not a perfect insulator, so that the movement of current along the axon is not complete. Finally, nerve fibres are smaller than most wires, so that the currents they can carry are limited in amplitude.

Conduction
The sequence of sodium activation-sodium inactivation-potassium activation creates a nerve impulse that is brief in duration, lasting only a few milliseconds, and that travels down the nerve fibre like a wave, the membrane depolarizing in front of the current and repolarizing behind. Because nerve impulses are not graded in amplitude, it is not the size of the action potential that is important in processing information within the nervous system; rather, it is the number and frequency with which the impulses are fired.

As stated above, the action potential is propagated along the axon without any decrease in amplitude with distance. However, the velocity of conduction along the nerve fibre is dependent upon several factors. First is the outside diameter of the nerve fibre. The fastest conduction velocity occurs in the largest diameter nerve fibres. This phenomenon has formed the basis for classifying mammalian nerve fibres into groups in order of decreasing diameter and decreasing conduction velocity. Another factor is the temperature of the nerve fibre. Conduction velocity increases at high temperature and decreases at low. Indeed, nerve conduction can be blocked by the local application of cold to a nerve fibre. Conduction velocity is also affected by myelination of the nerve fibre. Since ions cannot cross the lipid content of the myelin sheath, they spread passively down the nerve fibre until reaching the unmyelinated nodes of Ranvier. The nodes of Ranvier are packed with a high concentration of ion channels, which, upon stimulation, propagate the nerve impulse to the next node. In this manner the action potential jumps quickly from node to node along the fibre in a process called saltatory conduction (from Latin saltare, "to jump."

TTA: A little research can go a long ways maybe you should try it!!

 

[Guest]

say that again

 

[pamela]

from one of my college medical books:

Speed of nerve impulses:
The speed of a nerve impulse is independent of stimulus strength. Once a neuron reaches its threshold of stimulation, the speed of the nerve impulse is normally determined by temperature, the diameter of the fiber, and the presence or absence of myelin.
when warmed, nerve fibers conduct impulses at higher speeds: when cooled, they conduct nerve impulses at lower speeds. localized cooling of a nerve can block nerve conduction.
Fibers with large diameters conduct impulses faster than those with small ones. fibers with the largest diameter are called A Fibers and are all myelined. the A fibers have a breif absolute refractory period and are capable of saltatory conduction. They transmit impulses at speeds up to 130 m/sec.
The a fibers are located in the axons of large sensory nerves that relay impulses associated with touch, pressure,positions of joints,heat,and cold. They are also found in motor nerves that convey impulses to the skeletal muscles. Sensory A fibers generally connect the brain and spinal cord with sensors that detect danger in the outside environment.
Most A fibers innervate the muscles that can do something about the situation. If you touch a hot object, information about the heat passes over sensory A fibers to the spinal cord. There it is relayed to motor A fibers that stimulate the muscles of the hand to withdraw immediately. The A fibers are located where split-second reaction may mean survival.
Other fibers B and C fibers conduct impulses more slowly. they conduct speeds of about 10m/sec. B fibers are found in nerves that transmit impulses from the skin and viscera to the brain and spinal cord. They also constitute the axons of the visceral neurons located in the motor nerves that leave the lower part of the brain and spinal cord and terminate in relay stations called ganglia (this is what Einsteins brain had more of by the way. heheheh)
C fibers have the smallest diameters and the longest refractory periods. They conduct nerve impulses at the rate of 0.5m/sec.C fibers are located in all motor nerves that lead from the ganglia and stimulate the smooth muscle and glands of the viscera.
Examples of B and C fibers are constricting and dilating the pupils in the eye. increasing and decreasing heart rate and contracting and relaxing urinary bladder-functions of the autonomic nervous system.

translation: there is a delay. but it is very short and mostly unnoticeable. Its the whole thoery behind If you could make a teleportation system (speed of light or less )faster than the nerve impulses you would never feel it because you would be transported before the nerve impulse had time to reach the brain.
michael Crichton talked about this also in his book "timeline"
page 136 & 137
"Jesus," Stern said,watching."what does THAT feel like?"
"Nothing,"Gordon said."you dont feel a thing.Nerve conduction time from skin to brain is on the order of a hundred milliseconds. Lasar vaporation is five nanoseconds.You're long gone."

.......

Kate said,"We're supposed to do THAT?"
"it's not an unpleasant experience," Gordon said."you're entirely conscious all the way down,which is something we can't explain. By the final data compressions, you are in very small domains-subatomic regions-and consciousness should not be possible.Yet it occurs.We think it may be an artifact, a hallucination that bridges the transition. If so, it's analogous to the phantom limb that amputees feel, even though the limb is not there. This may be a kind of phantom brain. Of course, we are talking about very breif time periods,nanoseconds. But nobody understands consciousness anyway."

<This message has been edited by pamela (edited 11 August 2000).>

 

[Guest]

if we could speed up our perception...would we also see finer detail of bearly inperseptable entetys? a 6th sense...paranormal activity <to be extreme> rather like seeing ultrviolet light but in our minds?

 

[TimeTravelActivist]

You don't need to be a doctor or hold some fancy 4-year college degree to have a little common sense about life. It's basic information we are talking about. It's all common knowledge... So come on nothing, about me growing up.

Eye vision is not delayed. Geeesh, I should know. I have lived through times where if I waited for my eyes and brain to process the images of light reflected, I would get my ass kicked. I think some of you need to get a faster modem, how people who watch alot of cartoons, end up pretending to be one of the characters. The same could be how the hours pass by with a slow internet connection, processing data, KB by KB.

But life is not slow.

Ask your self this question then, is there a delay for a shadow to appear under a tree on a sunny day? If it's really sunny out, and if a few leaves covering the light of the sun of a tree end up making a dark shadow underneath. Would that shadow in reality take a while to appear (Not taking about the sun going down or coming up to make a shadow)?

Or how everyone here seems to have it in their minds that its formation is a delay, that it isn't really there at the time we think we see it.

Light travels slow then, is what the conclusion would be if you think, our eyes see things slow.

Give me a break...

The only thing we might see slow is sunlight, but it's light that we see. And it's like flicking a switch. But some of you think that once flipping the switch, that light takes time to spread over the darkness in a room. And vice versa.

So I will say it again, give me a break.

-Javier C.

 

[Guest]

Light takes time to travel any distance, large or small and when light enters the eye, it takes time to reach the brain, and when it reaches the brain, it takes time to proces the recognition of what we see. It takes time -- isn't "time" what this web site is all about?

 

[TimeTravelActivist]

NoTime,
Give me a break... Your entire argument is childish. You make it sound like if everything is so mechanical, and that it's all a long wait (process).

I guess the word "Instant" isn't in your brains memory banks. It will take a while for you to process the information, I know

. But when you do understand, just remember these words. "I told you so."

-Javier C.

 

[Guest]

So what about his post from the other perception posting? What have you got to say about it Mr. Javier, i'm interested to know.

From: http://unisci.com/stories/20001/0317006.htm

Human Brain Lives In The Past, By 80 Milliseconds

If you think you're living in the past, you're right -­ and science can tell you just how far behind the times you are. According to a new Salk study, it's at least 80 milliseconds, just slightly longer than the blink of an eye.

 

[Shaun Holt]

NoTime, I liked your post, continue with more. I very much enjoy reading posts from people who don't contradict themselves. Not that I don't get a small kick out of posts from people that do. And your right, time is what this site is all about.

Javier, if everything isn't somewhat mechanical, then what would you call it? As for childish, what kind of statement is "just remember these words."I told you so.""? Before I say what i'm thinking next, I just wanna say, I enjoyed reading through your website. Now, since you claim to be such a logical person, and I'll say you are, i've even spent a few years being completely logical about everything, until I opened my eyes and my mind. Javier, you being such a logical person, wouldn't you agree that you are taking on the essence of a machine, something mechanical? Thinking like a computer? Input... Input... Input... Process... Process... Output... over and over again. When is being totally logical about everything not acting mechanical.

A little something I learned a little while back: Being logical about things isn't bad, but over analyzing can leave you blind to many things. And besides, there is no reason to over analyze anything, because if we just gave our subconscious minds the chance and listened, we'd get the best answer of all from within. Take a look at Einstein and Edison. Or hell, my all time favorite, Phineas Parkhurst Quimby.

Now, OT, if your interested in some Underground Fighting, let me know. Sometimes its nice to get away from pittlepaddle slappin' thats done in most martial arts tourneys here in the U.S. I have some hookups in that area and there happens to be a nice little get together near the end of this month. Unfortunately, I won't be making it, I don't have enough time to make the journey this round.

-Shaun

 

[Guest]

Time delays serve an important purpose. The pauses in speach and the spaces in text are just as important as the sounds and words themselves. Pauses help provide context and emotion to spoken words. And try reading a book without spaces between words.

The human body is a biological mechanism, in part, and any mechanism takes time to perform a function because its component parts have to be activated individually.

A computer can perform some functions a lot faster then humans can, and a super computer does it even faster, yet it is not done instantaneously. It's possible that nothing happens instantaneously in a physical universe because time is a dimension that must be taken into account.

 

[TimeTravelActivist]

Shaun Holt, I didn't say I was logical all the time... NOW did I?

And if you are to break down the amount of time it takes for neurons to fire and react, or the nervous system to respond, that's fine. But just don't call it slow.

That's what my problem with this whole thread was. Sure, things take time. But it's so little time, that it's instant.

It's like rounding off to the nearest milli-second, and because it's so fast that instruments can barely read it. It's called instantaneous.

Now, That's all I am going to say on this thread. So think what you all want. I don't care anymore.

-J.C.