Faith or Reason?

[Janus]

Hi.

Just one question: in your opinion, is belief in time travel a science or a religion?<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">"`You'd better be prepared for the jump into hyperspace. It's unpleasantly
like being drunk.'
`What's so unpleasant about being drunk?'
`You ask a glass of water.'"
-Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

 

[CAT]

Time Travel is specified quite clearly in the Bible, starting in Genesis when GD creates the heavenlies and than separates the firmament all the way through Revelations to the new (Jerusalem) Heaven and Earth.


CAT...

 

[Shadow]

CAT

>>>time travel is specified in the bible<<<

I must have missed that chapter. Perhaps the god of Noa could time travel but everyone else missed the boat. I detect a tad of exlusivity during the early days of religion.

Belief in anything can be starkly impossible for some people. "Oh yee of little faith eat these garbonzo beans, pay your taxes and don't worry about a thing, the big cheeze upstairs will make it all better". No, really! Would I lie?

I suppose one could MAKE a religion out of anything: Moonies, Jim Jones, Jim (and Tammy Big Boobs)Baker*, Charles Manson, Osma Binlauden ((greetings NSA, did I spell it right?)), Sparky the Stigmata Dog from Her Lady of the Holy Flower Peddle Church....oops carried away again.

*Jim Baker, gotta hand it to him at, least he looked like he enjoyed the ride (pun not intended), right up untill he hit the wall at least. Him and Ken Lay ought to go into business together. Got any ideas of what they might name their company?

Not to change the subject but guess who just took over Global Crossing for 3cents on the dollar? The Chinese Army. No really! Would I lie? They now own enough fiber to go fron Peking to Washington 88 times, and still have enough left over to put ATT&T out of business.

The good news is that you can get real cheap airling tickets for Sept. 11.

 

[Shadow]

correction(s) to above:

its Ken Ley not Kenny L*a*y

its Flower Puddle not Flower Peddle

and its airline not airling

Of course every thing else is a pillar of accuracy.

Glass of water A to glass of water B, "Have you ever been drunk before?"

 

[CAT]

<font size="1" color="#FF0000">LAST EDITED ON 14-Aug-02 AT 08:29AM (EDT)</font>

Your talking to the wrong person!

I could get drunk on grape juice and the smell of gasoline!

But per religion, YES the big guy upstairs created TIME TRAVEL!

OF ALL PEOPLE YOU BEING THE SHADOW, should know that casted light and spirit defines the dimensions!


CAT...

 

[CAT]

If I might add,

Try reading the Book of Enoch and the keys of the Merkaba.

There is proof that other dimensions exist beyond our own (and relativity and quantum physics give us evidence that there is at least a fourth dimension beyond the familiar three.)

These are collective higher worlds that the historic Jesus spoke of when he said, "MY FATHER'S HOUSE IS A HOUSE OF MANY MANSIONS".

The texts is a higher conciousness which explaines how the human race is connected with a more advanced higher evolutionary structure of universal intelligence and believe it or not this linkage is being made through areas of world wide scientific confirmation and evidance!

It is only by understanding our physical universe as a sub structure of more sublime levels of creation working through archetypal fractals or "divine letters" of thought form creation that we can understand the importance of this teaching.

This is the great preparation, not only for the grand unification of the material realm, but for the ascension from the material and meta material realms into the consciousness and spiritual realms of higher creation. In this, the mystery of what Christ referred to as "The House of Many Mansions" is no longer a Mystery, but a factual revelation!!!


CAT...

 

[nwwildwoman]

Well, if you believe in God and that God created everything, then science would be the study of God's creation and time travel is a part of that so I would say for this person it's both.

If you don't believe in God, you would see time travel as a scientific question only.

 

[CAT]

That is correct Joanne, I believe science and religion are one in the same! And I think that as time progresses science will eventually learn this...

The super string theory from the (Sefir Yetzira)(book of formations) is well on its way in proving religeon as factual proof of creation.


CAT...

 

[Janus]

But isn't science clearly separate from religion? I mean, the scientific method is a clear pathway of reason, and to use it requires no recourse to any religious assumptions or beliefs. While OTOH, religion is by definition an act of belief and faith, where reason must at some point be ignored.

Religion and science may disagree on some points, but in all cases it is clear what is science and what is religion. My question again, then, is, what category does time travel fall under, in your opinion?<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">"All gods are false. Faith itself is idolatry."

Iain M. Banks, _The_Crow_Road_

 

[Shadow]

It comes under what ever catagory YOU decide to pigion-hole it in. Words, its all words. Words vs truth. Truth is whats true for you.

Don't you have anything else to worry about?

 

[nwwildwoman]

I suspect there is a considerable leap of faith that any scientist takes when he or she presents a new or divergent perspective on the "nature" of things. Faith that there is enough data to prove their theory correct. Faith that their theory won't be proven wrong.
And where do these ideas come from, universal consciousness, do they pop into our thoughs like a mini-big bang in the brain? or are creative thought an example of how we could be created "in the image of..."?
But all things are relative, so time travel could be all of the above, religion, science or science fiction. Any time travel theory takes a huge leap of faith to consider.
I guess the key here is to be open to all possibilities.

 

[CAT]

<<I guess the key here is to be open to all possibilities.>>

Yes the key here is to have an open mind. Knock and the door will open...Seek and you shall find...


CAT...

 

[Skye]

<<Yes the key here is to have an open mind. Knock and the door will open...Seek and you shall find...>>

I agree with you on the CAT, It's the only way I've been able to gain the abilities I have, through openmindedness, as random as a few of them may be. In my opinion, most of the human race has become very close minded, people forget what extraordinary power they have withen them. the phrase "Open your mind" to me is hard to figure out HOW you open your mind, just to share my veiw on that.



<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">I'm Skye, a girl with a dream, a quest and a nightmare.

 

[sonofbabylon]

nwwildwoman

This is something I posted on sciforums a while back and I think is relevant to what you're saying:


Allan Sandage(Astronomer)

Out of the big bang has come a non-chaotic system, because otherwise, cause and effect which surely exists would be impossible. So the design one sees in the universe may be completely natural as an outcome of the differential equations. The mystery is: why is the world describable in terms of differential equations—and it is. That’s the answer physics gives. All students that ever study are mystified by the great recipes that science have found., but the universe works by those recipes. So the universe we observe is not a chance phenomena. (THIS IS FAITH)

Stephen Hawking
From the age of 13 or 14 , I wanted to know how the universe worked and why, and why it is what it is. Now I have some idea how the universe works, but I really still do not understand—I really still do not understand why.(THIS IS FAITH)

Leon Lederman(Physicist)

The trouble we’re in now—this standard model—this standard picture, is very elegant and very powerful. But it’s not complete. It’s incomplete and has some flaws. One of its greatest flaws is one which is hard to explain. It’s an aesthetic flaw. It’s too complicated, and has too many arbitrary parameters—too many fluctuating limits. We don’t really see the creator twiddling twenty knobs and twenty parameters in the universe as we know it. That’s too many. Ever since the Greeks started us on this road to understanding the atom, the fundamental building blocks of the universe, we’ve had this predjudice that there’s something simple underneath all of this. Now 6 quarks and 6 leptons and all their antiparticles and their coming in different colors and charges is too complicated., and there’s a deep feeling the picture is not beautiful.; and that drive for beauty, simplicity and symmetry has been an unfailing drive as to how to go in physics.
Steven Weinberg(Physicist)(THIS IS FAITH)


We haven’t come to the bottom level yet. But as we approach it, intimations of an underlying beautiful theory whose beauty we can only dimly see at the present time. We don’t know that its true. We don’t know that there is a beautiful underlying theory. We don’t know that as a species we are smart enough to learn what it is. But we do know that if we don’t assume that there is a beautiful underlying theory, and assume that we’re smart enough to find out what it is—we never will. (THIS IS FAITH)

John Wheeler(Physicist)

To my mind, at the bottom of it all must be—not an utterly beautiful equation, but an utterly simple idea—and to me that idea when we finally discover it will be so compelling, so inevitable, so beautiful, that we will say to each other—how could it have been otherwise. (THIS IS FAITH)

Timothy Ferris(Cosmologist)

In the Judeo/Christian tradition, creation involved order from chaos and light from darkness. Religion and Science have sometimes been depicted as opponents, but science owes a great deal to religion. Modern Science began with the renaissance of the old Greek idea that nature is rationally intelligible. But Science from the beginning incorporated another idea that the universe really is a universe.—ruled by a single set of laws and science got that idea from the Judeo/Christian belief in one God. Now the men that discovered many of the laws of nature—the founders of modern science like Kepler, Copernicus, and Isaac Newton and Gallileo(with all his troubles with the church) were profoundly religious men. In the modern scientific research, especially unified theory, testifies to the triumph of the old idea that the universe may be ruled by a single and elegantly beautiful principle.(THIS IS FAITH)

Allan Sandage(Astronomer)

Out of the big bang has come a non-chaotic system, because otherwise, cause and effect which surely exists would be impossible. So the design one sees in the universe may be completely natural as an outcome of the differential equations. The mystery is: why is the world describable in terms of differential equations—and it is. That’s the answer physics gives. All students that ever study are mystified by the great recipes that science have found., but the universe works by those recipes. So the universe we observe is not a chance phenomena. (THIS IS FAITH)

Stephen Hawking
From the age of 13 or 14 , I wanted to know how the universe worked and why, and why it is what it is. Now I have some idea how the universe works, but I really still do not understand—I really still do not understand why.(THIS IS FAITH)

Leon Lederman(Physicist)

The trouble we’re in now—this standard model—this standard picture, is very elegant and very powerful. But it’s not complete. It’s incomplete and has some flaws. One of its greatest flaws is one which is hard to explain. It’s an aesthetic flaw. It’s too complicated, and has too many arbitrary parameters—too many fluctuating limits. We don’t really see the creator twiddling twenty knobs and twenty parameters in the universe as we know it. That’s too many. Ever since the Greeks started us on this road to understanding the atom, the fundamental building blocks of the universe, we’ve had this predjudice that there’s something simple underneath all of this. Now 6 quarks and 6 leptons and all their antiparticles and their coming in different colors and charges is too complicated., and there’s a deep feeling the picture is not beautiful.; and that drive for beauty, simplicity and symmetry has been an unfailing drive as to how to go in physics.
Steven Weinberg(Physicist)(THIS IS FAITH)


We haven’t come to the bottom level yet. But as we approach it, intimations of an underlying beautiful theory whose beauty we can only dimly see at the present time. We don’t know that its true. We don’t know that there is a beautiful underlying theory. We don’t know that as a species we are smart enough to learn what it is. But we do know that if we don’t assume that there is a beautiful underlying theory, and assume that we’re smart enough to find out what it is—we never will. (THIS IS FAITH)

John Wheeler(Physicist)

To my mind, at the bottom of it all must be—not an utterly beautiful equation, but an utterly simple idea—and to me that idea when we finally discover it will be so compelling, so inevitable, so beautiful, that we will say to each other—how could it have been otherwise. (THIS IS FAITH)

Timothy Ferris(Cosmologist)

In the Judeo/Christian tradition, creation involved order from chaos and light from darkness. Religion and Science have sometimes been depicted as opponents, but science owes a great deal to religion. Modern Science began with the renaissance of the old Greek idea that nature is rationally intelligible. But Science from the beginning incorporated another idea that the universe really is a universe.—ruled by a single set of laws and science got that idea from the Judeo/Christian belief in one God. Now the men that discovered many of the laws of nature—the founders of modern science like Kepler, Copernicus, and Isaac Newton and Gallileo(with all his troubles with the church) were profoundly religious men. In the modern scientific research, especially unified theory, testifies to the triumph of the old idea that the universe may be ruled by a single and elegantly beautiful principle.(THIS IS FAITH)


<hr size="1" width="80%" color="#000099" align="left">Zerubbabel--The Seed of Babylon

 

[Tribbobith]

A post by one Chris Ames released quite a while ago addressed this issue. It spawned a huge thread and was the topicof much conversation. It was titled "Time Travel Monopoly".

It's not fair. The first madman to get his hands on tie travel can do anything he wants. Anybody that comes after him will be zapped from the future. Perhaps "voices from above". Let me just say that if this man went back in time, something very interesting would happen. He could make the blind see using high tech medical equipment. He could appear three days after his death by time travel. If you haven't figured it out already, I'm talking about "God". The only reason he doesn't zap me right now is because there is nothing I could do about it. Like I said, "It's not fair."
Pretty soon, he would have a good following. People couldn't resist his promise of eternal life. He could just take them to the future and they could...well, live forever. If this is true, he runs a time-travel Monopoly that can't be brought to court by any government or organization. He may be a great humanitarian by teaching "love", but he still isn't a God.

 

[CAT]

Skye, You posted above,

<<I agree with you on the CAT, It's the only way I've been able to gain the abilities I have, through openmindedness, as random as a few of them may be. In my opinion, most of the human race has become very close minded, people forget what extraordinary power they have withen them. the phrase "Open your mind" to me is hard to figure out HOW you open your mind, just to share my veiw on that.>>

I tend to hear everyone out. I am more an observer than a talker really! (though it might not seem!

). Sometimes I feel that understanding other people and putting yourself in their shoes are the best lessons that life can offer. Because when you open yourself up to other people perspectives in essense what you are really doing is teaching yourself. IT IS THE ART OF COMMUNICATION AND LOVE THAT MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND!

I find importance and knowledge in everything that I read because I know down the line I will need to refrence it in some other way. All information and knowledge in important even though it may a semi truck owners and operators manual or a book about land turtles or instruction on how to pave a driveway. This is all valuable information and knowledge because it can be applied elsewhere! NOTHING GETS PAST THIS CAT! CURIOSITY SHOULD HAVE KILLED ME BY NOW!

This will allow you to see the full spectrum of all the accumulated knowledge possible! (you are the judge and all evidence is before you.) When you get to that stage in life there is no way you could ever over look and ignore the conception of seeing the grand plan of a creator at work! THIS IS ALSO FAITH!!!

By the way Sonofbabelon "BEAUTYFULL POST!" at getting your point accross!


CAT...